free throw lane issues

[deecee]

Alright -- how's it going? This is my first time posting and I came across a rather weird issue today which I have not come across in my 6 years of officiating.

Adult league championship game -- 30 seconds left team A up by 2 and shooting 2 free throws -- team A occupies the second spot and Team B big man goes to match up with Team A big man -- Team A big man then goes to move across the lane and team b big man follows him so he can box him out -- Now mind you I still have the ball -- once team b big man positions himself team A big man starts to go back across to the other side -- its like free throw musical chairs -- i ask him the next spot he goes to he better stay there -- team b big man now stays across from him as i administer free throw #1 -- shooter misses first shot. team B big man now goes to line up next to Team A big man -- Team A big man begins to play same game and I ask him to stay at his next spot -- he then turns around because team b big man was following him -- I "T" him up (team A big man) since I had asked him 3 times by now to pick a spot and stay there. I clear the lane and his player now misses the second shot.

On the way down hes complaining that I cost them the game -- to which I reply "No you cost your team the game" -- I cannot find in the rule book who gets to designate the spots -- offense or defense -- so that this can be prevented.

Normal high School rules apply here. Now I "T'd" him up because a delay of game was not needed -- i had asked him 3 times and he kept pushing the limit -- In my opinion a delay of game warning would have been unfair to team b as they were just trying to get the best matchup and he was being disruptive to the game.

Hope this makes sense -- cuz it got me...

[Nevadaref]

I think that you handled it well.
No warning for delay is applicable here because he is not doing any of the three things listed in 4-46.
RULE 4 - SECTION 46 WARNING FOR DELAY
A warning to a team for delay is an administrative procedure by an official which is recorded in the scorebook by the scorer and reported to the coach:
ART. 1 . . . For throw-in plane violations, as in 9-2-11.
ART. 2 . . . For huddle by either team and contact with the free thrower, as in 10-1-5c.
ART. 3 . . . For interfering with the ball following a goal as in 10-1-5d.


Calling a T is certainly appropriate. If you are ready to administer the FT and the player is preventing that, then he is delaying the game according to 10-3-6a.

RULE 10 - SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL

ART. 6 . . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

Now there is one other way that you could handle this without issuing a T. Get everyone else set for the FT and when he is crossing the lane simply administer the ball to his teammate who is shooting. Do this quickly enough so that he is still in the lane when the FT shooter catches the ball, then blow the whistle and call a lane violation against him. His teammate loses a FT attempt. That should put a stop to his antics.

[Ref in PA]

I think this would be an interesting question to be addressed in the case book. A4 shooting and B1 following A1 along the lane. I have not found anything specific in the rule book.

If it were my game I would make team B occupy their spots first then allow team A get their spots. Two reasons for that: B must occupy the two lower spots and I would make them fill that requirement first. Everything else is optional. B also has the advantage of having up to four players along the lane while A can only have up to two. A is already at a disadvantage, why further penalize them by giving B the option of advantageous matchups? But I also realize that the 4 to 2 rule was instated to insure the defense had a clear advantage for free throw rebounding. To me, forcing line advantageous match ups for B is taking it too far. I realize there is no rule base for imposing my opinion in this situation other than the referee ruling on an aspect not specifically covered in the rules.

I would have imposed this ruling before handing out a "T" to anyone. Tell the players that their line up is final (which you did), but then you allowed B to move but did not allow A?. In a way I feel that letting B get the final advantage let the situation get out of hand. But at the same time the players did not listen to specific instruction from the referee, so you were not left with much of a choice at that point.

[ChrisSportsFan]

I've never had this stitch happen but often wondered how I would handle. With HS kids, it would probably be easier then in a men's league where they KNOW IT ALL.

I'd probably tell the D to get set and then tell the O players to get set and give the ball to the thrower. Coulda been easy on you if someone else on D woulda stepped up and said....I got him, just stay there.

[Back In The Saddle]

I like the way you handled this. You allowed the players a reasonable amount of time to get set up in what they felt were the most advantageous positions. You let the players decide what those positions were. The constant tension between the offense looking for the advantage and the defence trying to neutralize that advantage is a natural part of the game. You drew your line in the sand, clearly. When one of the players crossed that line, you took care of it. What's not to like?

I'm in two minds about lane violation suggestion. I really like that the penalty is less severe. I think it would also send a pretty clear message, thus solving the problem. But it feels kind of "sneaky," like trying to ambush a player. I'd also be concerned about accidentally hitting the player with the ball while he's in the lane.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I like the way you handled this. You allowed the players a reasonable amount of time to get set up in what they felt were the most advantageous positions. You let the players decide what those positions were. The constant tension between the offense looking for the advantage and the defence trying to neutralize that advantage is a natural part of the game. You drew your line in the sand, clearly. When one of the players crossed that line, you took care of it. What's not to like?

I'm in two minds about lane violation suggestion. I really like that the penalty is less severe. I think it would also send a pretty clear message, thus solving the problem. But it feels kind of "sneaky," like trying to ambush a player. I'd also be concerned about accidentally hitting the player with the ball while he's in the lane.

If you ever played the game then I'm sure you could "thread the needle". :-)

[ChuckElias]

You could go with double T's here, since they're both part of the problem. With the double T, you don't give either team FTs, and (starting this year), you just pick up at the POI. So you haven't really done anything except told them that if they do it again, they're gone.

[ysong]

Because I can not find any rules that explicitly address this issue, I try to find a answer from the principles of basketball games.

IMHO, basically this case is about whether a player is allowed to choose his defender and whether a player is allowed to choose a player to guard.

So I think while a player is allowed to pick someone for him to guard, the one who is guarded does not get to choose who is guarding him.

Do you think this thought make sense?

Thanks.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by ysong
Do you think this thought make sense?

I understand it, if that's what you mean. But as you point out yourself, there's no rules justification for it. It's just arbitrary. The defense gets to choose, the offense doesn't. Fine, if that's the rule, but without a rule to back it up, I don't see how I can arbitrarily impose that on players.

[icallfouls]

This just another example that adult league is full of jacka$$ players looking to manipulate officials and fellow participants. These are the guys who start 6' and under, or 40 yrs and over leagues because they cannot compete or they were cut from their HS team and think they were just disliked by the coach, when they were just a bunch of pain in the necks without any skillz.

I know there will be those who disagree, but since you have 6 years of experience under your belt, you should just not put up with the juvenile behavior of these "adult" league players. Doing things like that is also a sign of disrespect to the officials.

I would also suggest one other alternative to the T. Give the ball to the shooter, while the player is moving back and forth, then call a lane violation. Afterall you told him to find a spot on more than one occassion. Rather than the T, the FT attempt would be waived off and his teammates would have gotten on him rather than thinking you cost them the game. In other words, put the ball in play.

my .02$ worth

[mick]

Originally posted by deecee
Adult league championship game -- 30 seconds left team A up by 2 and shooting 2 free throws -- team A occupies the second spot and Team B big man goes to match up with Team A big man -- Team A big man then goes to move across the lane and team b big man follows him so he can box him out -- Now mind you I still have the ball -- once team b big man positions himself team A big man starts to go back across to the other side -- its like free throw musical chairs -- i ask him the next spot he goes to he better stay there -- team b big man now stays across from him as i administer free throw #1 -- shooter misses first shot. team B big man now goes to line up next to Team A big man -- Team A big man begins to play same game and I ask him to stay at his next spot -- he then turns around because team b big man was following him -- I "T" him up (team A big man) since I had asked him 3 times by now to pick a spot and stay there. I clear the lane and his player now misses the second shot.

deecee,
After crossing over the 2nd time for the gamesmanship delay, I would ask them to "Please, Stop. Hold your spots."

Stepping into the lane, to a foot in front of the basket, would emphasize your point.
mick

[ysong]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I understand it,

Finally, someone acknowledges that. What a vindication!

[deecee]

My view on free throw line matchups is the same as regular defensive matchups - the offense does not get to choose who guards them so why should I change that here.

I dont think a double T is necessesary here for a few reasons -- One Team B is just trying to get in the best possible position to box out the talles player on the court by a long shot. -- Two there is no need to penalize Team B as they are not the ones initiating the musical chair game. -- Three I had asked the offensive player to chose a spot and stick with it.

If this was a high school game I would have approached it the same way -- Heres why I would not bounce the ball and issue a lane violation.

Both teams violated (team A did not fake team B in) so essentially there is no real advantage as both the offense and the defense were disconcerting to the shooter. And also as officials we should not be bouncing the ball to the shooter while players are adjusting themselves on the lanes. In high school if a coach or captain does not step in and tell his player to hold his spot that's their problem -- I ask once, twice then ring up the player that is the cause of this.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by ChrisSportsFan

If you ever played the game then I'm sure you could "thread the needle". :-)

Yeah, but it's just one more thing to worry about. Murphy's law seems to apply with greater force with each passing year

[icallfouls]

QUOTE]Originally posted by deecee
....
If this was a high school game I would have approached it the same way -- Heres why I would not bounce the ball and issue a lane violation.

Both teams violated (team A did not fake team B in) so essentially there is no real advantage as both the offense and the defense were disconcerting to the shooter. And also as officials we should not be bouncing the ball to the shooter while players are adjusting themselves on the lanes. In high school if a coach or captain does not step in and tell his player to hold his spot that's their problem -- I ask once, twice then ring up the player that is the cause of this. [/QUOTE]

Part of our job is to perform preventative officiating activities and game management. Your ringing up will only get your assignors phone ringing and thus your phone ringing. If this is the way you choose to work, enjoy the many years of rec ball that will be headed your way. I realize this seems harsh but if you are going to T people up because you cannot gain control of your game by any other method, please don't bring the trainwreck that is your officiating career to my games.

Use some common sense!