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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 09:35am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The Rules Committee specificially stated in the editorial revision that the dropping of the sentence allowing the game officials to stop the game so that a player could tie his shoes was to prohibit the official from stopping the game for such a purpose.

The dropping of a sentence from a rule is a rule change. A change stays in effect until the rule is changed or an interpretation changes it; it does not matter whether the rule was changed in 1943 or 1983. Plays get dropped from the every year but that does not mean that the cease to exist. Until a rule is changed that would affect a casebook play it still is valid. While not everyone may have access to the 1962-63 rule book or the 1942-43 or 1982-83 rule books for that matter, officials have a wealth of information at the disposal.

I refered to the NFHS Basketball Handbook as one of two sources for the shoe lace time out problem. In the current Handbook on page 13, Year 1963, it specifically states no time is allowed to tie a shoe lace.

To say that since the we do not know about the rule change that was made in 1962-63 means that we do not have to abide by that rule change is incorrect. And we cannot use the Elastic Power clause which is R2-S3 in both NCAA and NFHS rule books.

In summary, in 1962-63 the rule was changed to not allow officials to grant themselves time outs so that a player could tie his shoe. The Rules Committe did this by deleting a sentence in Rule Two and gave the reason for this in an editorial comment. Therefore, the Rules Committee's decision still stands until the NHFS and NCAA change the rule.
Mark,
I agree with your reasoning, but I do not know that rule.
As noted above, ...somewhere, I have taken to "not calling a play stoppage" due to this forum's influence.
If it was, in fact, actually written, how do we relay such information to new officials?
If there are many more of these "un-determinations", then the continuity of understanding and enforcement of the rules has a major schism which should somehow be addressed.

And further, What grade were you in when the rule was "mediated"? Fifth? Seventh? And how the heck did you find it. I'm impressed.

mick
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 01:37pm
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Mark,

Thanks for your wealth of knowledge... I won't call timeouts anymore for that one. Got another question for you however, If I call a timeout for a hurt player... player wants to stay in and says s/he is fine, does coach have to sub? How does that work?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 02:07pm
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one reason you get paid the big bucks

Denny,

That is a judgement call on your part. A good rule of thumb is if you stop the game, and you know that the situation is not life-threatening, give the bench the stop sign in order to keep coach and/or trainer from sprinting onto the floor. If the bench personnel comes, the player then goes.

After that, talk to the player and make your own determination if they are able to continue safely. If so, just resume play.....if not, then beckon help from the sidelines. Remember however, you can never err if you work on the side of safety.
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Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 03:10pm
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Here's what I was told...

Mind you, I am not working with the best officials (prob why they are still working younger kids). Here is what happened...

A went up for the block, B put the shot in and also inadvertently poked A in the eye (I was Lead at the time). B was doubled over with his hand covering his eye, I blew the whistle to see if he was ok, (I am also a medic...hard to not medically attend to any injuries in a game) he was fine "it just stung for a second". My Partner went over and told the Coach, even though the boy was fine and could play, that he had to sub because we stopped the game. I questioned him after the game and he said anytime I stop the clock for an injury, the coach has to sub.

Thoughts?? Comments??
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 03:38pm
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Thumbs down Your partner was Guessing....

Quote:
Originally posted by dhodges007
Mind you, I am not working with the best officials (prob why they are still working younger kids). Here is what happened...

A went up for the block, B put the shot in and also inadvertently poked A in the eye (I was Lead at the time). B was doubled over with his hand covering his eye , I blew the whistle to see if he was ok, (I am also a medic...hard to not medically attend to any injuries in a game) he was fine "it just stung for a second". My Partner went over and told the Coach, even though the boy was fine and could play, that he had to sub because we stopped the game. I questioned him after the game and he said anytime I stop the clock for an injury, the coach has to sub.

Thoughts?? Comments??
Denny,
I think you got your players confused.

In the Basketball Simplified and Illustrated Rules (1999-2000), the Comic Book states and shows:
3-3-4 - the official stops play for an apparently injured player. Number 4 is actually not hurt and wishes to remain in the game. Since the official has not beckoned for assistance and no bench personnel have entered the court, and since all this has occured within a few seconds, the official allows #4 to continue.

There is a related case, 3.3.4B where the player leaves because the coach came onto the court.

mick

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Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 05:27pm
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LOL OK, A was doubled over...
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 05:55pm
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I have to agree with Mick

Even though the 1963 rulebook comment states that no delay should be granted, the committee didn't have the cojones to make it a rule or note permanently - therefore it is not a rule.

A more current example is 20/30 second timeouts. Some think that players must stand, but there is no rule mandating this. There was a suggestion in the comments on the changes in 1997-1998 that the players remain standing but this was not made into a rule.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 06:31pm
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We have an Adult Tourney going on (55th year). The tournament recruits NCAA Dl, and Dll officials and just the other day a player was tying his shoe and the official blew the ball dead when his team had the ball. I guess my question would be..... Is this a normal call for him in college? I personally do not blow the ball dead for someone tying their shoe

AK ref SE
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2001, 06:49pm
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by AK ref SE
We have an Adult Tourney going on (55th year). The tournament recruits NCAA Dl, and Dll officials and just the other day a player was tying his shoe and the official blew the ball dead when his team had the ball. I guess my question would be..... Is this a normal call for him in college? I personally do not blow the ball dead for someone tying their shoe

AK ref SE
AK ref SE,
I would suggest that in an adult tourney, a lot of those players have to work in the morning, and that some extra caution was applied and spiced with some common sense.
mick

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 27, 2001, 04:44pm
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Re: I have to agree with Mick

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Even though the 1963 rulebook comment states that no delay should be granted, the committee didn't have the cojones to make it a rule or note permanently - therefore it is not a rule.

A more current example is 20/30 second timeouts. Some think that players must stand, but there is no rule mandating this. There was a suggestion in the comments on the changes in 1997-1998 that the players remain standing but this was not made into a rule.

The 1997-98 example regarding twenty second timeouts is not germane to this discussion. As I have stated before, the effect of deleting any section or part of a section from a rule is to change the rule.

Prior to the 1962-63 season, the rules stated that the officials could stop or delay play so that a player could tie his shoe laces. The Rules Committee deleted the sentence in the rules that allowed the officials to stop or delay play for that purpose. Then the Rules Committee, in an editorial comment, specifically stated why the sentence was deleted, and that reason was that the Rules Committee did not want officials to call an "officials timeout" in order to stop or delay play so that a player could tie his shoe laces. Untied shoe laces are not a safety hazard; a player can stop and tie his shoe laces anytime that he wants, and if he wants to stop or delay play to tie his shoe laces, then the play must call a team timeout.

Since the rule book does not state that officials CAN stop or delay play for the purpose of letting a player to tie his shoe laces, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that officials CANNOT stop or delay play for that purpose.
Nor can an official rely on the Elastic Power clasue (R2S3 in both the NCAA and NFHS rule books) for this purpose.

One may not like the rule but that does not give one the right to ignore it. Having said that are there any times when I would stop or delay play so that a player could tie his shoe laces? Yes, this past weekend I officiated the Ohio Special Olympics State Finals and there were a couple of times when we did just that. But, for adult, jr. H.S., H.S. freshmen, jr. varsity, and varsity, college, and AAU national tournament games, I would adhere to how the Rules Committe wants the rules interpreted and the game officiated.
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