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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 20, 2005, 08:52am
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First round playoff games last week and I'm calling with guys from other associations.

Now i know we all have different mechanics so we have good pregames and all is pretty good, but a couple of what i would call "unusual" calls.

Just wonderin if anyone else has noticed the same.

Sitch 1 - 55-50 with about one minute to play. Trailing team has ball. Sets offense same play they've run all game and suddenly - three seconds. (we had not had a three second call all game) I'm in C and kid has his heel on the line in post.


Sitch 2 - boys semi-final and good game but a little rough in the post. Home team up 65-60 with about two minutes to play. Suddenly out of nowhere C calls an intentional foul on home team for holding on an inbounds play. After its over score now tied as they hit 2 Ft's plus a three.

Have to admit I've not seen that one before. After the game he said that defense player grabbed offense by the jersey. But intentional??

Just wonderin if others have seen the same type of stuff which makes the whole crew look bad in the midst of a good game.

I still don't know why our state won't assign crews from the same associations for playoffs. We do in baseball, football, but not basketball.

Thanks
David
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 20, 2005, 09:47am
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You're second-guessing your partners pretty good, aren't you, David? The problem is....are you sure that they aren't doing the same about you?

The 3-seconds sounds iffy- fer sure- but do you know all of the dynamics on that call? Warnings ignored, etc.?

The intentional foul coulda been the right call too. Personally, I discuss calls like these with my partners, but I always try to avoid substituting my judgement for theirs. Especially when the call is their's.Their association may have instructed their officials to call shirt-grabbing late in games an intentional foul.

Most associations or officials' groups do some things slightly different than their neighbors or other groups. You may have made a call in this game that had your partner's heads shaking too. It would be great if we had uniformity across the country, but that ain't gonna happen-- so we just do the best we can.

Jmo, but when you're assigned to these games, just do the best job that you can. Enjoy the experience of meeting and working with different officials. Jmo.
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Old Sun Feb 20, 2005, 10:55am
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David --

I have similar experiences when I'm at camp in the summer. what I've learned to do is ask about it later, if there's a chance to. Sometimes p will say, "That's how I was taught". Or they might say, "Blew that one!" Or, "I thought the rule was..." As JR says, you can learn something from each experience. And as a coach posts here, every so often, If someone isn't a good example, he might be a terrible warning!
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Old Sun Feb 20, 2005, 04:36pm
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Its still a lot of fun though!

Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
David --

I have similar experiences when I'm at camp in the summer. what I've learned to do is ask about it later, if there's a chance to. Sometimes p will say, "That's how I was taught". Or they might say, "Blew that one!" Or, "I thought the rule was..." As JR says, you can learn something from each experience. And as a coach posts here, every so often, If someone isn't a good example, he might be a terrible warning!
You're right. Its still a great game and lots of fun. Sometimes just makes you want to scratch your head and go ... hum.

I guess since i was a coach for 6 years before I was an official I still feel for the coaches sometimes - but not too often.

Four more games next week, i'm looking forward to it and again with different partners from all over the state etc.,

Thanks
David
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 20, 2005, 07:59pm
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Why would there be such different mechanics across in the same state? Does your state not set some standards that everyone has to apply?

Peace
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 01:00am
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Yes and No

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Why would there be such different mechanics across in the same state? Does your state not set some standards that everyone has to apply?

Peace
the state sets the standards but each association still has a lot of say in what goes on.

For example - all of our games in our association were three man mechanics. Our association told the schools that was the way we would do it and they were fine with it.

The majority of the state is still using two man with the exception of the larger schools.

Also since we have a lot of college officials, we use the flex a lot and sometimes will do straight college mechanics.

The state still likes the old style of C always across the table and lots of long switches etc.,

But, we're making progress. Maybe one day we'll all be on the same page.

But its not unusual to have a playoff game with an official who has not called three man all year long. That is a big problem IMO. No matter what you cover in pregame, it still makes for a shaky game coverage wise.

thanks
David
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Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 01:53am
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Exclamation Your state should address this then.

I do not know what state you live in and for this discussion it really does not matter. This is what I have been talking about for years when I read this board. Associations (officials) seem to have way too much control in many states. You state should be setting the standard, not the local group. I would really think that way if the playoffs are going to be given out by the state association. Everything is not perfect here by any means, but the state here sets the agenda. Local associations are just an extension of the IHSA. If the local associations do not follow some guidelines, they will not be an association any more. We have certified clinics in our state and basically the same information is taught across the state. Those clinics are run by state clinicians and if they do not do their job properly, they lose those positions. So I can work from one part of the state to another (and I have in many cases) and we are not dealing with that different of philosophies. Now that does not mean that there are not personal philosophies out there, but you are not going to see things that cannot be talked out or see something that is so different officials cannot work together. I would say 90% of my games are with officials that do not belong to associations that I am a member of. I rarely have a problem with my partners either understanding the basic mechanics or our coverage areas. With what our state does with camps and other training, everyone has a relative good understanding of what we are supposed to do.

Peace
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Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 01:57am
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David, I'm curious what state? What city are you in?
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 02:33am
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
David, I'm curious what state? What city are you in?
I'm in Mississippi. Our state has made lots of progress and will continue to improve. Our association (insert puffed out chest here) has a great reputation all over the state. We are noted for not only being fair, but very consistent whether it be calls or mechanics.

Thanks
David
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 11:18am
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3-seconds....mmmm..might have passed on that one

Grabbing and holding the jersey...sounds like it's definitely intentional to me, unless someone can convince me otherwise.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 01:01pm
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have u stopped to consider it's the team that is winning getting called for the intentional foul? Why would the leading team commit an intentional foul? Sounds like the player got caught being a 'defensive back' in football who is holding his opponents shirt trying to keep him from making his cut so he can catch the pass.

I believe (from the description in the original post) the official was invoking the section of Rule 4.19.3 that states "foul designed to keep the clock from starting".

It is possible the official was invoking the section "contact away from the ball or not playing the ball". I have a hard time believing this is the part of the rule he was using though, because, unless the contact was excessive, I can't imagine any playoff level rated official calling an intentional foul there.

The only way I could be convinced it was a good intentional foul called is if it was being whistled against the team that was losing.

Btw David, what part of Mississippi are ya in?
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Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 02:01pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RollTide
have u stopped to consider it's the team that is winning getting called for the intentional foul? Why would the leading team commit an intentional foul? Sounds like the player got caught being a 'defensive back' in football who is holding his opponents shirt trying to keep him from making his cut so he can catch the pass.

I believe (from the description in the original post) the official was invoking the section of Rule 4.19.3 that states "foul designed to keep the clock from starting".

It is possible the official was invoking the section "contact away from the ball or not playing the ball". I have a hard time believing this is the part of the rule he was using though, because, unless the contact was excessive, I can't imagine any playoff level rated official calling an intentional foul there.

The only way I could be convinced it was a good intentional foul called is if it was being whistled against the team that was losing.

Btw David, what part of Mississippi are ya in?
I think your perception is exactly what I was thinking.

I'm in Hattiesburg.

Thanks
David

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 02:21pm
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You have me thinking here. I was pretty much under the impression that grabbing the jersey was intentional, almost under any circumstances....if he wanted to hold him he could have grabbed him by the arm or the waist, or impeded him in some other manner. If a dribbler is on a breakaway, and the defender grabs his jersey from behind, I think most of you would call an intentional foul, not merely a holding foul. An intentional foul (4-19-3) is also "...to neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position...and is not based on the severity of the act." Perhaps the C felt the recipient would have had a clear path to a basket, and that was the reason for the hold.

I offer this as an alternative theory.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 02:34pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Why would there be such different mechanics across in the same state? Does your state not set some standards that everyone has to apply?
We do not have standards in my state, the assoication determines what mechanics we are going to do.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 21, 2005, 03:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by RollTide
I have a hard time believing this is the part of the rule he was using though, because, unless the contact was excessive, I can't imagine any playoff level rated official calling an intentional foul there.

Grabbing a shirt is accidental and not intentional?

What difference does it make who's ahead or behind? You two don't believe in calling it the same at both ends?

You two are doing a great job second-guessing a fellow official's call.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Feb 21st, 2005 at 03:25 PM]
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