BLARGE

[tjones1]

Yes, I know this can happen. But it shouldn't, this is something that you should pre-game.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by tjones1

Better have a brass pair to make this call. While this could happen, probably unlikely.

No, you'd better have a brass pair if you only call one of them. You'll need both of 'em when you explain to the coach that you called a foul on his opponent, but you've changed your mind.

You can pre-game it all you want to, but double whistels are still going to happen.

[tjones1]

Yes I know double whistles are going to occur. But if you have them, you shouldn't be quick to the trigger by signaling a call. That was my point...maybe I off the mark!? But, it'd be the first time this year... LOL

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by tjones1

I don't believe you can call both a charge and a block at the same time. It's the same for the NFHS, whoever's primary the play was in is who has the call, the other official has to eat the call.

1) This thread is less than 24 hours old and it is already two pages long and I have yet to make a post in the thread.

2) tjones1: You go to the head of the class for your observation that you cannot have both a block and a charge on the same play.

MTD, Sr.

[BktBallRef]

tjones, MTD disagrees with the NFHS Case Book play that states that this play is not a double foul. He thinks the NFHS is wrong.

Unfortunately for him, this is a double foul, whether he likes it or not.

And he knows that.

[tomegun]

I don't want to be picky but I will anyway

MTD, he said call a block and charge at the same time. You said have a block and charge at the same time. While I can agree that you probably can't have a block & charge at the same time it can be called at the same time. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but this became a big deal when it happened during a college game. In this atmosphere:

1. Hearing a double whistle can be hard
2. Selling the call immediately can be very important
3. Huge egos are involved
4. Mechanics are required, most of the time, to get you there and then you can do whatever once you have the big schedule

I also want to point out that this can often times be avoided if we are mechanically sound and really work at the art of 3-man (person). It happens too many times in a clearly defined primary (not in the middle of the paint). For instance if I'm at the C on a play and there is a crash in my primary I want to be able to go straight to my "mechanic" If the same play happens and I'm at the Lead, IF (and I mean IF) I have a whistle I will have a fist and my eyes will immediately go to my partner to look for a hammer or mechanic. If I don't do anything at the Lead I can always come in with a delayed whistle if need be. I'm of the strong opinion that a Blarge is often a product of the "let's just get it right" attitude. "Getting it right" should start with the beginning which is do we know the proper 3-man mechanics. Knowing and pregaming the proper mechanics could reduce the risk of this call taking place. Now, will it totally remove this sort of double whistle? No. IMHO, this is one thing the NBA clearly does better than HS and college; look where your partners are not looking.

[ronny mulkey]

Tommy,

Agree with TH in that no amount of pre-gaming will prevent blarges. But, please, please share with me your pre-game on this one. We have tried several and we still have the occasional blarge. If you are not having them, or never had one, maybe whatever you are doing is working.

So, pre-game me. Right now.

thanks

Mulk

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
Tommy,

Agree with TH in that no amount of pre-gaming will prevent blarges. But, please, please share with me your pre-game on this one. We have tried several and we still have the occasional blarge. If you are not having them, or never had one, maybe whatever you are doing is working.

So, pre-game me. Right now.

thanks

Mulk

If you are having the occasional blages, then someone does not trust their partner or does not understand who has the ball in their primary. This is not just an issue of pre-game. This is an issue of understanding the mechanics. If you have little understanding of the mechanics (especially in 3 person) it does not matter what you say in the pregame. Pregame is just to remind the officials of their responsibility, it is not for the purpose to teach the official what the mechanics are.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by JRutledge
[/B]

If you are having the occasional blarges, then someone does not trust their partner or does not understand who has the ball in their primary.
[/B][/QUOTE]Are you saying that you never, ever have a blarge in your games?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Are you saying that you never, ever have a blarge in your games?

That is not what I said.

Peace

[ronny mulkey]

Rut,

Is there one, and only one, mechanic philosophy on crashes to the basket? Can you share your understanding of the primaries on dribbles to the basket? On passes to the basket? Secondary defenders?

When you have those outlined, can you explain how you get your partners to recognize when the play is not in their primary on wham bam plays that are 1 inch outside of their primaries? We have gone in at halftime and have had 3 different opinions on where the play originated and the spot of the crash. And, when reviewed on tape, none of us were correct on both.

If it is simply a matter of mechanics, (I will ask this question one more time), how can the people doing the games on TV not understand these mechanics?

Mulk

If you are having the occasional blages, then someone does not trust their partner or does not understand who has the ball in their primary. This is not just an issue of pre-game. This is an issue of understanding the mechanics. If you have little understanding of the mechanics (especially in 3 person) it does not matter what you say in the pregame. Pregame is just to remind the officials of their responsibility, it is not for the purpose to teach the official what the mechanics are.

Peace [/B][/QUOTE]

[tomegun]

Originally posted by JRutledge

If you are having the occasional blages, then someone does not trust their partner or does not understand who has the ball in their primary. This is not just an issue of pre-game. This is an issue of understanding the mechanics. If you have little understanding of the mechanics (especially in 3 person) it does not matter what you say in the pregame. Pregame is just to remind the officials of their responsibility, it is not for the purpose to teach the official what the mechanics are.

Peace

Mulkey, JRut said a mouthfull. I will just add something I do. If I have a whistle in my secondary (like JRut said there must be an understanding of the mechanics) it will be a crash, something big or it will be in the middle of the paint. I come up with a hammer and look directly at my partner(s). What upsets me briefly is when I have something in my primary and I go with my "mechanic" only to see someone else with a whistle. This is what I do and it has worked for me. There have been a few times when my partner will have a preliminary and I will have a hammer and a verbal. In a crowded gym we can get away with this almost every time. I haven't had a blarge yet and don't jinx me Jurassic

[tomegun]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
Rut,

Is there one, and only one, mechanic philosophy on crashes to the basket? Can you share your understanding of the primaries on dribbles to the basket? On passes to the basket? Secondary defenders?

When you have those outlined, can you explain how you get your partners to recognize when the play is not in their primary on wham bam plays that are 1 inch outside of their primaries? We have gone in at halftime and have had 3 different opinions on where the play originated and the spot of the crash. And, when reviewed on tape, none of us were correct on both.

If it is simply a matter of mechanics, (I will ask this question one more time), how can the people doing the games on TV not understand these mechanics?

Mulk

If you are having the occasional blages, then someone does not trust their partner or does not understand who has the ball in their primary. This is not just an issue of pre-game. This is an issue of understanding the mechanics. If you have little understanding of the mechanics (especially in 3 person) it does not matter what you say in the pregame. Pregame is just to remind the officials of their responsibility, it is not for the purpose to teach the official what the mechanics are.

Peace

[/B][/QUOTE]

They don't understand these mechanics because of math.

Coaches want them + 50-120 games X an average of $1k per game = they look how they want and do what they want

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
Rut,

Is there one, and only one, mechanic philosophy on crashes to the basket? Can you share your understanding of the primaries on dribbles to the basket? On passes to the basket? Secondary defenders?

There is no magic bullet. There is no clear way to tell you how to avoid this situation. The more experienced you are, the more you understand the mechanics, and the easier it is to completely avoid this from happening. I do not go into a lecture during pregames to avoid this call. Usually all I say is let the Center official take the ball to the basket and whoever calls the foul, resort to the primary of the official who made the call. It does not mean you will not have double whistles. But if you know an official had the play all the way, it is very easy to hold off on the whistle and let them make the call. If you see something that is on the border of your primary, you might want to wait a few seconds before signaling. The more you work, the more you understand about the mechanics and when you might have a double whistle.

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
When you have those outlined, can you explain how you get your partners to recognize when the play is not in their primary on wham bam plays that are 1 inch outside of their primaries? We have gone in at halftime and have had 3 different opinions on where the play originated and the spot of the crash. And, when reviewed on tape, none of us were correct on both.

No Ron. If you have 3 different opinions, someone is not watching off ball coverage. Ron, this is really not that big of a deal. You seem to think that this is a major problem. I have been working 3 Person for 9 years and I have had only one blarge in that period of time during the regular season. I had one happen during the summer but one of my partners was ball watching and not looking off ball. You have to trust your partner on the floor.

Peace

[ronny mulkey]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
[B]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
Rut,

The more you work, the more you understand about the mechanics and when you might have a double whistle.

I agree with this obvious statement. But, I asked a lot of specific mechanic questions, but all you have said about the mechanics, so far, is to let the C take the ball to the basket????? Because you seem to be successful on avoiding this calamity, I asked you to share these mechanics.


No Ron. If you have 3 different opinions, someone is not watching off ball coverage.

On the contrary, we had 3 different opinions on play origination and spot of the crash BECAUSE we had off ball coverage. This is my point. At warp speed, primaries are sometimes are to discern.




Ron, this is really not that big of a deal. You seem to think that this is a major problem.

Not a major problem, but it pains me when people say a blarge can be EASILY be avoided by adhering to mechanics or by pregaming or by trusting your partner. About the only way that I think it can be avoided is to go with the fist only. This is what we have been trying to teach for the past several years. But, we see this more on games when we have 3 stronger, more experienced officials than on games where we might have a strong R, good U1 and a U2.


I have been working 3 Person for 9 years and I have had only one blarge in that period of time during the regular season. I had one happen during the summer but one of my partners was ball watching and not looking off ball. You have to trust your partner on the floor.

This one more than you had the last time we had this discussion. Which brings me to another point: YOU (Rut) may understand mechanics, YOU (Rut) may always be off ball, YOU (Rut) may always trust your partner, YOU (Rut) may always know your primary BUT your partner(s) might not. And, that is all it takes to have a blarge.

Peace