Back Court Violation?????

Buckeye Ref · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 27, 2005, 10:27pm

A fellow official had a game situation that I thought I would throw out to everyone. Looking for NFHS rules. Offense has the ball in the front court and they're bounce passing it back and forth from one corner to the other, near the division line. As one offensive player passes the ball it's bouncing in the back court and into the hands of the other offensive player, who are both in the front court. Would this be considered a back court violation?

IREFU2 · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 27, 2005, 10:34pm

If the offensive player touched the ball while it is in the backcourt, then its a backcourt violation.

rainmaker · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 01:03am

Quote:

Originally posted by IREFU2
If the offensive player touched the ball while it is in the backcourt, then its a backcourt violation.

That's not the best way to word it. The rule is Team A can't be both the last to touch before it went into backcourt, and the first to touch after it was in the backcourt. So if A1 is in front court, and bounces the ball along the division line, and it hits the floor in the back court, A1 was the last person to touch before it went into backcourt. Now if A2 is the next to touch and the ball hasn't bounced back in the frontcourt, even if A2's feet are in frontcourt, that's BC. If I'm reading this play correctly, I've got a BC violation.

Adam · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 01:07am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

That's not the best way to word it. The rule is Team A can't be both the last to touch before it went into backcourt, and the first to touch after it was in the backcourt. So if A1 is in front court, and bounces the ball along the division line, and it hits the floor in the back court, A1 was the last person to touch before it went into backcourt. Now if A2 is the next to touch and the ball hasn't bounced back in the frontcourt, even if A2's feet are in frontcourt, that's BC. If I'm reading this play correctly, I've got a BC violation.

Juulie,
The only addition I would make would be to say it doesn't matter if the ball bounces back into the front court before being touched by A2. Once they've established FC status and team control, and the ball hits the backcourt (assuming A1 is last to touch before it goes to the backcourt), it will be a violation for A to be the first to touch the ball; even if it bounces all the way to the FC basket.
this play is a violation.

rainmaker · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 01:18am

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

That's not the best way to word it. The rule is Team A can't be both the last to touch before it went into backcourt, and the first to touch after it was in the backcourt. So if A1 is in front court, and bounces the ball along the division line, and it hits the floor in the back court, A1 was the last person to touch before it went into backcourt. Now if A2 is the next to touch and the ball hasn't bounced back in the frontcourt, even if A2's feet are in frontcourt, that's BC. If I'm reading this play correctly, I've got a BC violation.

Juulie,
The only addition I would make would be to say it doesn't matter if the ball bounces back into the front court before being touched by A2. Once they've established FC status and team control, and the ball hits the backcourt (assuming A1 is last to touch before it goes to the backcourt), it will be a violation for A to be the first to touch the ball; even if it bounces all the way to the FC basket.
this play is a violation.

Really? Wow. I wonder how to explain that to the coach.

It's me staying up tonight after a great game. What a blast. It just doesn't get much better than this, I'll tell ya. First in the league against second in the league, both undefeated. The band, the cheerleaders, the crowds, coaches both intent on winning. A great partner, and we worked well together, just plain fun from start to finish.

TimTaylor · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 03:02am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

It's me staying up tonight after a great game. What a blast. It just doesn't get much better than this, I'll tell ya. First in the league against second in the league, both undefeated. The band, the cheerleaders, the crowds, coaches both intent on winning. A great partner, and we worked well together, just plain fun from start to finish. [/B]

Details Juulie....which league/teams?

Ref in PA · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 08:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

That's not the best way to word it. The rule is Team A can't be both the last to touch before it went into backcourt, and the first to touch after it was in the backcourt. So if A1 is in front court, and bounces the ball along the division line, and it hits the floor in the back court, A1 was the last person to touch before it went into backcourt. Now if A2 is the next to touch and the ball hasn't bounced back in the frontcourt, even if A2's feet are in frontcourt, that's BC. If I'm reading this play correctly, I've got a BC violation.

Juulie,
The only addition I would make would be to say it doesn't matter if the ball bounces back into the front court before being touched by A2. Once they've established FC status and team control, and the ball hits the backcourt (assuming A1 is last to touch before it goes to the backcourt), it will be a violation for A to be the first to touch the ball; even if it bounces all the way to the FC basket.
this play is a violation.

This is an interesting interpretation I have not heard before. I am not sure I agree with that. How can you have a back court violation by touching a ball with front court status? Is there some case play of which I am unaware? Please cite your justification for this interp. Thanks.

BktBallRef · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 08:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by Ref in PA
This is an interesting interpretation I have not heard before. I am not sure I agree with that. How can you have a back court violation by touching a ball with front court status? Is there some case play of which I am unaware? Please cite your justification for this interp. Thanks.

1- Team control by Team A.
2- Ball has attained FC status.
3- Team A was the last to touch the ball before it went into the BC.
4- Team A was the first to touch the ball after it went into the BC.

Violation.

Jurassic Referee · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 08:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by Ref in PA

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

That's not the best way to word it. The rule is Team A can't be both the last to touch before it went into backcourt, and the first to touch after it was in the backcourt. So if A1 is in front court, and bounces the ball along the division line, and it hits the floor in the back court, A1 was the last person to touch before it went into backcourt. Now if A2 is the next to touch and the ball hasn't bounced back in the frontcourt, even if A2's feet are in frontcourt, that's BC. If I'm reading this play correctly, I've got a BC violation.

Juulie,
The only addition I would make would be to say it doesn't matter if the ball bounces back into the front court before being touched by A2. Once they've established FC status and team control, and the ball hits the backcourt (assuming A1 is last to touch before it goes to the backcourt), it will be a violation for A to be the first to touch the ball; even if it bounces all the way to the FC basket.
this play is a violation.

This is an interesting interpretation I have not heard before. I am not sure I agree with that. How can you have a back court violation by touching a ball with front court status? Is there some case play of which I am unaware? Please cite your justification for this interp. Thanks.

Rule 9-9-1 is the pertinent rule. Last touched by A in the front court--then first touched by an A player after the ball had gone into the backcourt. There's no stipulation in this rule saying that the ball has to stay in the backcourt--just go into the backcourt.

FrankHtown · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 09:08am

Doesn't the ball regain front court status once it touches the floor in the front court?

Hotlink501 · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 09:11am

that would be like the same scenario of having established fc, and while dribbling the ball, standing on fc and dribbling the ball on the bc side, same violation.

Ref in PA · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 09:49am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Rule 9-9-1 is the pertinent rule. Last touched by A in the front court--then first touched by an A player after the ball had gone into the backcourt. There's no stipulation in this rule saying that the ball has to stay in the backcourt--just go into the backcourt. [/B]

I agree that is literally what the rule states. But at the same time, I can read the rule and say the writers assume the ball has BC status when touched. I guess I would like the rule writers to clarify what they really meant. I realize what the rule says, but to me it makes no logical sense to have a BC violation on a ball with FC status when touched by the team with team control. Any way we can ask the Big Wigs for an interp?

Adam · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 10:25am

My understanding is that the intent of this rule is to limit offense activity to half the court. By not calling this play a violation (if the ball bounces in the BC and then back to the FC), you are essentially granting team A a loophole and advantage not allowed by the rules.
Chances are, if this play happened, it would look so weird and awkward, no one would question the whistle. I wouldn't worry about having to explain it to a coach. It's the right call.

JohnBark · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 10:26am

Yes

rainmaker · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 28, 2005, 10:34am

Quote:

Originally posted by TimTaylor

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

It's me staying up tonight after a great game. What a blast. It just doesn't get much better than this, I'll tell ya. First in the league against second in the league, both undefeated. The band, the cheerleaders, the crowds, coaches both intent on winning. A great partner, and we worked well together, just plain fun from start to finish.

Details Juulie....which league/teams? [/B]

Cowapa league. Tillamook vs Scappoose. Tillamook is ranked 2nd in the state in 3A. Scappoose isn't in the top 10, but they're always in the "Others receiving votes" category. Scappoose got beat by around 10. They played pretty well, but their shooting was horrible. Another 10 percentage points in the shooting and we'd have had a real barn burner. Both teams had several great, clean steals. Several fast breaks. Scappoose was about 50% on their uncontested lay-ups, Tillamook about 90%. At one point we had Tillamook with 7 fouls and Scappoose with 1. No one complained. Once Scappoose started fouling to get the ball back, of course, it was all over, because even when they got the ball, they couldn't hit. There was some complaining from the girls a couple of times. Scappoose was fouling very hard, and Tillamook didn't like that. But all in all, we did a great job.

Partner was Joe Hutchins. I always like working with Joe, but last night he was great. He's lost some weight physically, and gained some weight in presence and control, and we did a fantastic job.

I've got another big one to look forward to on Monday. Central Catholic vs Centennial. CC is 1st in league, Centennial is 3rd, but they've beat second place once, and they've won their last 7 or 8 games, and they'll be the home team. There was an article in the paper on Wednesday about how important the game is, and it's going to be a complete blast. After that...