FT lane leaning on one another

[ctpfive]

Sat night Boys Varsity Game. Freethrow lane. The first lane spaces are filled with the defense and the second lane spaces are filled with the offense. In this situation before the shot is even taken the offense in the second lane space is leaning on the defense in the first lane space. Is this a violation? When the ball hits the rim, the defense doesn't have a chance they are already pinned. They do not have a chance to step in the lane to essentially make a good block out. Seems like the offense has created an advantage on this sort of speak pre-shot lean. What's your call?

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by sfriede
Sat night Boys Varsity Game. Freethrow lane. The first lane spaces are filled with the defense and the second lane spaces are filled with the offense. In this situation before the shot is even taken the offense in the second lane space is leaning on the defense in the first lane space. Is this a violation? When the ball hits the rim, the defense doesn't have a chance they are already pinned. They do not have a chance to step in the lane to essentially make a good block out. Seems like the offense has created an advantage on this sort of speak pre-shot lean. What's your call?

If it starts before the ball is placed at the disposal of the shooter, lead should catch it and tell them to knock it off. If it doesn't happen until after the ball becomes live & you think it creates a disadvantage for the defense, then call the foul - typically it's either a hold or a push.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by TimTaylor

If it starts before the ball is placed at the disposal of the shooter, lead should catch it and tell them to knock it off.

Lots of people are going to tell you something like this. It is wrong. 9-1-8 is the applicable rule. It only places a restriction upon where the player's feet are. Reaching into another player's space with his hands or arms is allowed as long as that player doesn't push or hold the opponent ONCE THE BALL BECOMES LIVE. The contact is NOT a foul while the ball is DEAD unless it is intentional or flagrant. The same is true for leaning in with the body. It may be annoying, but the rules don't prevent being annoying, just unsporting, and it is highly doubtful that this action qualifies as unsporting behavior.
It is a pet peeve of mine when officials tell players not to do something that is legal. Please don't be in that group.
Your only decision should be whether the contact is strong play or a foul.

[Mark Dexter]

Nevada,

We all know this contact is not a foul if it is during a dead ball. However, while we ignore non-flagrant, non-intentional contact during a dead ball for foul purposes, that does not mean we have to turn a blind eye to it.

To help manage the game, I agree - tell the players to knock it off. This is no different than two big guys getting a bit antsy and pushing each other prior to the ball becoming live on a throw-in.

[Ref Daddy]

We tell the players to "Knock-it-off". We indicate that the vertical area above the "feet on the floor" is equal access until the ball hits the rim.

I find if they know their arming and elbowing has your attention - they'll usually cool it.

[PA Official]

Does anyone else have anything to say about this specific situation? You are allowed to lean over into the next space? You are allowed to lean onto the defense in the first spot?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Lots of people are going to tell you something like this. It is wrong. 9-1-8 is the applicable rule. It only places a restriction upon where the player's feet are. Reaching into another player's space with his hands or arms is allowed as long as that player doesn't push or hold the opponent ONCE THE BALL BECOMES LIVE. The contact is NOT a foul while the ball is DEAD unless it is intentional or flagrant. The same is true for leaning in with the body. It may be annoying, but the rules don't prevent being annoying, just unsporting, and it is highly doubtful that this action qualifies as unsporting behavior.
It is a pet peeve of mine when officials tell players not to do something that is legal. Please don't be in that group.
Your only decision should be whether the contact is strong play or a foul.

First of all, I believe you were thinking of 9-1-9, not 9-1-8. But neither is in effect until the ball is at the disposal of the free throw shooter. By your logic, you shouldn't tell a player standing on the block or on the line to move off before you toss the ball to the shooter. Because, until the free throw restrictions are in effect, it's legal for him to be there, right? And that would be telling a player not to do something that is legal, right?

Of course not. You communicate with the players to get them into a legal position for what is about to happen next. You warn throwers that they have a spot, you warn defenders not to reach through the plane on a throw-in. You warn players in all kinds of situations, fouls and violations, dead ball and live ball, to keep them from doing something you'll have to penalize them for. It's preventive officiating and game management.



[Edited by Back In The Saddle on Jan 17th, 2005 at 06:19 PM]

[Adam]

Originally posted by PA Official
Does anyone else have anything to say about this specific situation? You are allowed to lean over into the next space? You are allowed to lean onto the defense in the first spot?

The air is free game, as long as their foot doesn't cross the plane. However, leaning on the opponent is not acceptable, and will result in a foul if I discern any advantage or displacement. Chances are you'd only have to call this one time.
Now, the one I see most often is when A2 (in the 2nd spot) simply puts her arm in front of B1 (in the 1st spot). Nothing yet. Now, B1 gets annoyed and starts moving A2's arm. Whattaya got?

[Adam]

Originally posted by sfriede
Sat night Boys Varsity Game. Freethrow lane. The first lane spaces are filled with the defense and the second lane spaces are filled with the offense. In this situation before the shot is even taken the offense in the second lane space is leaning on the defense in the first lane space. Is this a violation? When the ball hits the rim, the defense doesn't have a chance they are already pinned. They do not have a chance to step in the lane to essentially make a good block out. Seems like the offense has created an advantage on this sort of speak pre-shot lean. What's your call?

Call the foul here.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

The air is free game, as long as their foot doesn't cross the plane.

What about the "cone of verticality?" Does that need to be considered here?

[Adam]

Originally posted by rainmaker

What about the "cone of verticality?" Does that need to be considered here?

Only if it's dipped in chocolate and filled with soft-serve ice cream.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by rainmaker

What about the "cone of verticality?" Does that need to be considered here?

When it comes to A1 leaning on B1, I think it does. A1 is clearly entitled to the spot, and to his/her "cone of verticality."

This has got me thinking (hide the women and children), would this qualify as an intentional foul?

An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul designed to stop or keep the clock form starting, to neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position, contact away from the ball or when not playing the ball. It may or may not be premediated and is not based on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a plyer causes excessive contact with an opponent.

B1 is, by design, in a more advantageous position. A1 is deliberately trying to neutralize that advantageous position through illegal contact. The contact happens away from the ball and while not playing the ball. It some ways it's similar to reaching through the plane and fouling the thrower-in. Hmmmm, makes you think.

[Edited by Back In The Saddle on Jan 17th, 2005 at 01:23 PM]

[PA Official]

I think it has to be a foul, on all occasions. The leaning while the shooter has the ball obviously has advantage/disadvantage implications, hence a foul, and the batting of the arms definately is something that needs cleaned up or will lead to bigger things.

I agree that a warning is in order on both occasions, but if it continues, call the foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by PA Official
I think it has to be a foul, on all occasions.

I disagree.

Suppose the actions happened during play -- A1 comes off a screen to get an open jumper at the FT line. B2 has good boxout position on A2, and A2 "leans on" B2. The shot is good. I'd have no foul. (But, I might talk to A2 -- just as I would before / after the FT situation).

Change the play so the try rebounds to A2 and B2 is unable to jump for the rebound because of the lean, and I'd have a foul. The same as in the FT situation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
First of all, I believe you were thinking of 9-1-9, not 9-1-8.

Yep. I hit the wrong key there, thanks.

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
But neither is in effect until the ball is at the disposal of the free throw shooter.

I agree, BITS, and this only strengthens my argument. Unless the kid is doing something that constitutes an intentional or flagrant foul, he is NOT doing anything wrong! He is not fouling or violating during this dead ball period. So leave him alone!

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
By your logic, you shouldn't tell a player standing on the block or on the line to move off before you toss the ball to the shooter. Because, until the free throw restrictions are in effect, it's legal for him to be there, right? And that would be telling a player not to do something that is legal, right?

Correct for the third time, and I don't.

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
You communicate with the players to get them into a legal position for what is about to happen next.

I communicate with the players through my required mechanics after calling a foul or a violation. I tell them to "line up" or "take your spots" and 2 shots or 1 shot on free throws. And I'll give other necessary information such as a response to a captain on a rules question. Otherwise, I don't talk to the players. I certainly don't coach them.

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

You warn throwers that they have a spot, you warn defenders not to reach through the plane on a throw-in. You warn players in all kinds of situations, fouls and violations, dead ball and live ball, to keep them from doing something you'll have to penalize them for. It's preventive officiating and game management.

Nope. I definitely do not do those things. I consider that to be the coach's job. It is up to him to make sure that his players know what is legal and what is not. I simply administer the game. (I will give a signal for end line running.) If the player is doing something that is illegal and it creates an advantage/disadvantage, I just penalize it. That is my duty.
What you call preventive officiating and game management, I call coaching, and believe that is not the proper role for an official.

But I hope that what you do works for you and brings you success. I just have a different method of operating. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.