Free-Throw Violation?

[tjones1]

Saw something today that got me wondering...it didn't happen. Just one of those "what-ifs".

Play: A1 is shooting free throws. The ball is given to him. A1 takes a couple dribbles and then takes the ball and goes behind his back. Now, if the ball would have hit his leg and went behind him. Could one of his team mates (that were behind the three-point arc and free throw line extended) give the ball back to him? I know that if he left the semi-circle it would be a violation.

[Mark Dexter]

9.9.1(b) seems to be the closest here - A1, at the line, "accidentally drops the ball before the throwing motion is started."

RULING - The official should sound the whistle to prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again.

Now, if the ball isn't dropped but, rather, dribbled away, there's no specific violation, but I think you can justify nullifying the free throw based on the principles of fair play and on 9-1-1 - the FT must be attempted from within the semicircle.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by tjones1
Saw something today that got me wondering...it didn't happen. Just one of those "what-ifs".

Play: A1 is shooting free throws. The ball is given to him. A1 takes a couple dribbles and then takes the ball and goes behind his back. Now, if the ball would have hit his leg and went behind him. Could one of his team mates (that were behind the three-point arc and free throw line extended) give the ball back to him? I know that if he left the semi-circle it would be a violation.

Don't know. But I bet no matter what you called noone else would know whether you were right or wrong. LOL

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tjones1
Saw something today that got me wondering...it didn't happen. Just one of those "what-ifs".

Play: A1 is shooting free throws. The ball is given to him. A1 takes a couple dribbles and then takes the ball and goes behind his back. Now, if the ball would have hit his leg and went behind him. Could one of his team mates (that were behind the three-point arc and free throw line extended) give the ball back to him? I know that if he left the semi-circle it would be a violation.

Helluva question. Know what? If the FT shooter never left the semi-circle and his teammate never came inside the 3- point arc or the FT line extended to retrieve the ball, and the FT shooter shot his FT within 10 seconds, what violation could we call?

If the FT shooter fumbles the ball forward and a player on the lane line then simply passes the ball back to him, and neither of those players at any time broke the plane of their respective restraining lines- FT line and lane line-,is there a rule in the book saying that any of that was actually illegal too?

[SteveM]

"If the FT shooter fumbles the ball forward and a player on the lane line then simply passes the ball back to him, and neither of those players at any time broke the plane of their respective restraining lines- FT line and lane line-,is there a rule in the book saying that any of that was actually illegal too?"

Wouldn't you use 9.1.1 in this situation as well?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SteveM
"If the FT shooter fumbles the ball forward and a player on the lane line then simply passes the ball back to him, and neither of those players at any time broke the plane of their respective restraining lines- FT line and lane line-,is there a rule in the book saying that any of that was actually illegal too?"

Wouldn't you use 9.1.1 in this situation as well?

Uh, yeah. But do we really have to use 9.1.1 in this case if no violation is actually committed? That's the question.

[SteveM]

9.1.1 Sit: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a free throw (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) accidentally drops the ball before the throwing motion is started. RULING: In (a) and (b) the offical should sound the whistle to PREVENT any violations and then start the free throw procedure again.

You said "If the FT shooter fumbles the ball forward". Why would you not use 9.1.1 to prevent a violation? Are you going to let the players administer the free throw? At the very least this would look ackward.

IMO, if my partner or myself has given the ball to the free throw shooter and for whatever reason he doesn't maintain control of it before his throwing motion has started, I'm going to stop the play and start it again.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SteveM
9.1.1 Sit: A1, at the free throw line to attempt a free throw (a) muffs the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) accidentally drops the ball before the throwing motion is started. RULING: In (a) and (b) the offical should sound the whistle to PREVENT any violations and then start the free throw procedure again.

You said "If the FT shooter fumbles the ball forward". Why would you not use 9.1.1 to prevent a violation? Are you going to let the players administer the free throw? At the very least this would look ackward.

IMO, if my partner or myself has given the ball to the free throw shooter and for whatever reason he doesn't maintain control of it before his throwing motion has started, I'm going to stop the play and start it again.

That's the point, Steve. What exactly is the violation that I'm preventing? That's the question. Your answer?

[SteveM]

Wouldn't the rule be referring to free-throw violations here since that's the context if given in?

So by rule:

"Once the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower no player occupying a marked lane space may enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the free throw ends. Players who do not occupy a marked lane space may not have either foot break the vertical plane of the free-throw-line extended and the vertical plane of the three-point line until the ball touches the ring or backboard or the free throw ends.".

Unless I'm mistaken, I would have to say that those restrictions apply even when the thrower muffs the pass or simply loses control for whatever reason because the throw has started. Those rules are not in effect when the throw has ended of course but has that happened?


As for a player beyond the three-point arc securing the ball I'd have to apply 9.1.1 there also, I don't have a violation yet, but I might prevent one. I'm certainly not going to let said player, or any player, simply pass the ball back to the shooter and we go from there.

I think it's a simple matter of applying 9.1.1 irrespective of what violation or violations may occur. We apply the remedy 9.1.1 gives us to "Prevent" a violtaion. So by rule we can know that a violation can occur but we are stopping play ASAP to "Prevent" one from occurring if possible. You ask "what violations", I think thoses violations would have to be free-throw related as stated above.

Hopefully I've made myself clear but it's early still.
And of course this is just my opinion.


Respectfully.

[tjones1]

I would agree if we as officials made him lose control of the ball. But the point is that the shooter was "showing off" by going behind his back before he shot. Why would you want to stop the attempt for something the shooter could have prevented?

[SteveM]

I was under the impression that he'd done that accidently which of course is covered in (b) of 9.1.1.

Anyway,

"Why would you want to stop the attempt for something the shooter could have prevented?"

I may not particularly want to be I have no rules reference to "do nothing" in this situation. I do have a specfic rules situation that defines what is to be done when the free-throw shooter doesn't have control of the ball through his fault or the offical's though.

I'm certainly not defending "hot dogging" at the free throw line but one could argue that "muffing the pass" as described in (a) of 9.1.1. is the fault of the thrower and that taking the ball behind the back and losing control which again is the fault of the thrower whether intentional or not is covered by (a) of 9.1.1.

Again, this is just my interp of the rules. I'm sure their are other more experienced official's that might sheed some more light on this and even help me gain a better understanding of what can be done.


Respectfully.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SteveM

"Once the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower no player occupying a marked lane space may enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the free throw ends. Players who do not occupy a marked lane space may not have either foot break the vertical plane of the free-throw-line extended and the vertical plane of the three-point line until the ball touches the ring or backboard or the free throw ends.".

Unless I'm mistaken, I would have to say that those restrictions apply even when the thrower muffs the pass or simply loses control for whatever reason because the throw has started.

The point is that the free throw has not started by rule. Fumbling the ball isn't a try, according to the definition of a "try" in Rule 4-40.

As for your citation, if the ball goes directly to a player who hasn't left their spot on the lane and that player didn't break the plane of the lane line when they grabbed the ball, or if the fumbled ball goes backward to a player on the arc who also never broke the plane of the 3-point line when they grabbed the ball, and that player just throws the ball back to the shooter-- and the shooter then grabs the ball without also ever having broken the plane of the foul line or semi-circle and shoots it within the 10 secods allotted by rule-- please tell me where or what is the violation. There isn't one in your citation above, is there? Nobody at any time ever entered or left a space or broke the vertical plane of a restraining line, did they?

[SteveM]

I don't have a violation as of yet as you describe it. Never said I did.

The free throw starts "when the ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower". What does "at the disposal of" mean? Has that been satisfied by the offical when he bounces the ball to the thrower? Does the thrower have to have control for "at the disposal of" to be satified?

9.1.1 specifically states "offical should sound the whistle to prevent any violations". So by rule, violations are possible during either sit (a) or (b), would you not agree?

No where does it say the the throwing motion had started in these 2 case plays, yet violations are still suggested as possible if the official doesn't reset the play.

If violations are possible then the free-throw must have begun by rule after the thrower had the ball bounced to him or her.

Again, I don't have a violation as you described your last post. But I will not allow the free throw to continue without resetting the play.


Respectfully.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SteveM

9.1.1 specifically states "offical should sound the whistle to prevent any violations". So by rule, violations are possible during either sit (a) or (b), would you not agree?

Sure I'd agree with that. It's got nuthin' to do with what i've been saying though. I'm still waiting, as I have been all along, for you to tell me exactly what violation(s) you are blowing your whistle to prevent?

What and where is the violation if the shooter fumbles the ball to a player on a lane line and the player throws it back to him- and neither player ever stepped over their respective restraining lines- and the shooter still shot within 10 seconds? Exactly what violation are you preventing? Please tell me because I sureashell can't think of one rule on that play that the the shooter or the player on the line violated.

And if the shooter fumbled the ball backwards to a player outside the 3-point line, and the player then threw it back to him--and again neither player ever broke the plane of their respective restraining lines, again please tell me exactly what the violation is? I sureashell don't know. I can't think of any rule that would be broken in that particular situation. I'm always willing to learn though.

To sum up, where exactly is a violation being committed on this particular play(s)? Please cite the violation and the rule covering it. Inquiring minds need to know!

Respectfully.

[SteveM]

You stated:
"Sure I'd agree with that. It's got nuthin' to do with what i've been saying though. I'm still waiting, as I have been all along, for you to tell me exactly what violation(s) you are blowing your whistle to prevent?"

Those violatons that can occur during a free-throw attempt,naturally. Those events expressly forbidden by:

"Once the ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower no player occupying a marked lane space may enter or leave such space or break with either foot the vertical plane of any lane-space boundary until the ball touches the ring or backboard or until the free throw ends. Players who do not occupy a marked lane space may not have either foot break the vertical plane of the free-throw-line extended and the vertical plane of the three-point line until the ball touches the ring or backboard or the free throw ends.".

In your post those events have not occurred but possibly could occur and I have never indicated that they have occurred.

You stated:
"What and where is the violation if the shooter fumbles the ball to a player on a lane line and the player throws it back to him- and neither player ever stepped over their respective restraining lines- and the shooter still shot within 10 seconds? Exactly what violation are you preventing? Please tell me because I sureashell can't think of one rule on that play that the the shooter or the player on the line violated."

I don't have one as of yet. But lets ask the question of who is administering the free-throw here. Seems to me a player is, what if B1 doesn't throw a very nice pass back to the thrower A1? Not that it happened, but it's possible isn't it? Violation, I can't think of a rule to support calling a violation here but B1 hasn't any business doing my job.
I do have a rule that says "on a muffed pass" which I could call a fumbled ball or "accidental drop" that I should "tweet" the play and reset it. Do I ignore 9.1.1. completely because no violation has been committed?

You stated:
"And if the shooter fumbled the ball backwards to a player outside the 3-point line, and the player then threw it back to him--and again neither player ever broke the plane of their respective restraining lines, again please tell me exactly what the violation is? I sureashell don't know. I can't think of any rule that would be broken in that particular situation. I'm always willing to learn though."

Again, I don't have a violation here. But answer me this, what is the accepted course of events for a free-throw attempt. Is it (a) the official placing the ball at the disposal of the thrower or (b) a player placing the ball at the disposal of the thrower? Considering this irrespective of any possible or actual violations, I vote for (a).


You stated:
"To sum up, where exactly is a violation being committed on this particular play(s)? Please cite the violation and the rule covering it. Inquiring minds need to know!"

Again, I don't have a violation. Not yet anyway but one could possibly occur, B1 could step into the lane and grab the ball, agreed? Or do we completely disreguard 9.1.1's statment of "to prevent any violations"? What violations, again those directly related to the context of the play of course, free-throw violations. I don't suspect it would involve anything else at this juncture.

The case book play states that they, violations, are indeed possible, which to me is the point, but indeed may not occur as your posts have indicated no violations. I am just saying, maybe not very clearly, that I'm not going to wait around and see if a violation occurs, especially when I have a rule that tells me to do otherwise.

So let me summarize; "I have no violation(s)" according to the conditions described in the previous posts.
That does not mean one can't or won't occur. I do not let players admin free-throw attempts because I have "no rule" to support such actions by players on the court. I can't find a single rule allowing another player to give the thrower the ball on a free-throw, can you? But I can provide a rule telling me as an offical to admin the free-throw which would exclude a player doing so, Rule 8 Section 1 Art1.


My apologies if I have made this as clear as mud or have misunderstood your previous posts.

Respectfully.