5th Foul Question

[jritchie]

When you tell the coach the player has 5 and is retired..you then start the 30 second clock....then turn to the player and tell him/her that it's his 5th and he needs to leave....then he can go to his players and say whatever he wants, no where does it say he can't 'TALK' to his players...this is in no way participating!!!!! when the buzzer sounds and no sub is there then you can give the coach a T..... BIG STRETCH TO GIVE THE PLAYER A T FOR THIS!!!

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by blindzebra
by rule the kid is BENCH PERSONEL once the coach is notified, would you allow him to send a kid off his bench over to tell the other 4 players something during this 30 second period?

No, and good point.
But, in this situation the rules allow for a DQ'd player to be bench personnel AND on the court at the same time...at least untill the player is substituted for.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If he's performing coaching duties out on the court, I would certainly call it "participating". Just talking might be a l'il bit of a stretch, but not coaching.

Fair enough...and like I stated before, if my partner didn't feel comfortable having the player on the floor performing these "duties"...I would back him/her.
I just wouldn't make a big deal of it unless the DQ'd player was doing something unsporting.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by jritchie
When you tell the coach the player has 5 and is retired..you then start the 30 second clock....then turn to the player and tell him/her that it's his 5th and he needs to leave....then he can go to his players and say whatever he wants, no where does it say he can't 'TALK' to his players...this is in no way participating!!!!! when the buzzer sounds and no sub is there then you can give the coach a T..... BIG STRETCH TO GIVE THE PLAYER A T FOR THIS!!!

Um, and how can you ignore Rule 10-4-1(g) then? The rules say that he can't be out on the floor.

RULE 10 Section 4 BENCH PERSONNEL
The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behaviour of substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel shall not:
ART1- Commit an unsporting foul . This includes......
(g) team member(s) not remaining seated on the bench unless spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a member of their team and immediately returning to their seats or reporting to the scorer's table.

RULE 4 SECTION 14- DISQUALIFIED PLAYER
ART2: A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official.

The rules cited above say that the disqualified player should be on the bench as soon as the head coach is notified. Unless you can cite something else that will back up your position, I think that I'll go with the rules.

[shawn29]

Um, and how can you ignore Rule 10-4-1(g) then? The rules say that he can't be out on the floor.

RULE 10 Section 4 BENCH PERSONNEL
The head coach is responsible for the conduct and behaviour of substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel shall not:
ART1- Commit an unsporting foul . This includes......
(g) team member(s) not remaining seated on the bench unless spontaneously reacting to an outstanding play by a member of their team and immediately returning to their seats or reporting to the scorer's table.

RULE 4 SECTION 14- DISQUALIFIED PLAYER
ART2: A player is officially disqualified and becomes bench personnel when the coach is notified by an official.

The rules cited above say that the disqualified player should be on the bench as soon as the head coach is notified. Unless you can cite something else that will back up your position, I think that I'll go with the rules


JR,
How long would you give the dqed player to join the other bench personell after you had informed him/her of the dq foul?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by shawn29

JR,
How long would you give the dqed player to join the other bench personell after you had informed him/her of the dq foul? [/B]

Shawn, jmo, but I would expect the disqualified player to start to the bench when the official notified him. It wouldn't bother me if he stopped and touched hands with his teammates, or said a few words to them. I really don't care how slowly or quickly or how long he takes to get to the bench either. But after he gets to the coach, I wouldn't let the coach send him back out on the floor either to perform coaching duties. As I cited above, the rules do not allow that. The player lost the right to participate when he was disqualified. There's no rule stopping the coach from calling the 4 remaining ball players on the floor over to himself at the bench and giving them the same instructions himself- as long as the coach has a sub ready to go at the end of 30 seconds.

If a timeout is called, do you notify the coach immediately that he has 30 seconds to replace the player and then grant timeout, or do you grant timeout and add 30 seconds to the back end?

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Shawn, jmo, but I would expect the disqualified player to start to the bench when the official notified him. It wouldn't bother me if he stopped and touched hands with his teammates, or said a few words to them. I really don't care how slowly or quickly or how long he takes to get to the bench either. But after he gets to the coach, I wouldn't let the coach send him back out on the floor either to perform coaching duties. As I cited above, the rules do not allow that. The player lost the right to participate when he was disqualified. There's no rule stopping the coach from calling the 4 remaining ball players on the floor over to himself at the bench and giving them the same instructions himself- as long as the coach has a sub ready to go at the end of 30 seconds. [/B]

at the end of 29.9 seconds. now I am nit-picking you

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by MPLAHE
If a timeout is called, do you notify the coach immediately that he has 30 seconds to replace the player and then grant timeout, or do you grant timeout and add 30 seconds to the back end?

The player must be replaced BEFORE you grant the time out.

[joseph2493]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Partner calls 5th foul on home team captain...informs coach and player. Player walks toward bench, but coach says "Go tell them I want them to run 25 on defense while I figure out who to put in!" Player turns to walk back out to teammates and give the message, when partner steps in and tells player to stay right there by bench...coach gets irate - "I've got 30 seconds..." yada yada...was able to defuse situation enough to not have to T coach...in locker room, partner is absolutely adamant that the rules says dq'ed player must stand by the bench until replaced and can't be with teammates on the court...I can not find anything in the book about that...anyone remember reading anything about this before???

Ok guys, read the post and picture the situation in your head.

Player gets fifth foul, coach informed then player...player nearly at bench and coach has him turn around to tell the other players (while he makes his mind up)

And your wandering why his partner was upset and stopped him. The player has been dq'ed, is bench personnel and coach is trying to get under rocky & partner's skin.

I don't think it has to be a big deal, but put in the situation I don't think there are that many of us that would something different than the partner did and tell the player to turn around and go back to the bench

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BBall_Junkie
There's no rule stopping the coach from calling the 4 remaining ball players on the floor over to himself at the bench and giving them the same instructions himself- as long as the coach has a sub ready to go at the end of 30 seconds. [/B]

at the end of 29.9 seconds. now I am nit-picking you [/B][/QUOTE]No, actually that's a very good point. We went over this whole procedure at one of our meetings this year, and I was amazed (and a little worried) at the number of our guys that weren't aware of the proper procedure- i.e. the sub should be at the scorer's table before the 30-second horn goes off. Not that we want "t"s called if the sub is on the way to the table- we still want a little discretion- but the guys should know the proper procedure, no matter what.