5th Foul Question

rockyroad · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 01:58pm

Partner calls 5th foul on home team captain...informs coach and player. Player walks toward bench, but coach says "Go tell them I want them to run 25 on defense while I figure out who to put in!" Player turns to walk back out to teammates and give the message, when partner steps in and tells player to stay right there by bench...coach gets irate - "I've got 30 seconds..." yada yada...was able to defuse situation enough to not have to T coach...in locker room, partner is absolutely adamant that the rules says dq'ed player must stand by the bench until replaced and can't be with teammates on the court...I can not find anything in the book about that...anyone remember reading anything about this before???

Jurassic Referee · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Partner calls 5th foul on home team captain...informs coach and player. Player walks toward bench, but coach says "Go tell them I want them to run 25 on defense while I figure out who to put in!"

The player was officially disqualified by rule. Rule 10-5-3 says that "the head coach shall not permit a team member to participate after being removed from the floor for disqualification". What the head coach directed his disqualified player to do was "participate", and if the player was "removed from the floor", then he sureashell shouldn't be going back on the floor. Penalty is a direct "T" on the head coach. Let him do what he wants in the bench area, but not out on the floor.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 13th, 2005 at 02:12 PM]

rockyroad · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:14pm

Hmmmm...not sure I buy that JR. The coach does have 30 seconds to replace the player, but nowhere does it say that those 30 seconds have to be spent standing beside the bench. Said player has not yet been "removed from the floor" until we get the sub onto the court, right?

shawn29 · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:19pm

Has the player been removed from the floor yet? And does him talking to his teammates after being dqed constitute participation are my questions? I know I have seen dqed players in NCCA mens huddle up their teammates prior to leaving the floor and give them the old " hang on and win one for the Gipper" speech before exiting the floor.

RookieDude · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Partner calls 5th foul on home team captain...informs coach and player. Player walks toward bench, but coach says "Go tell them I want them to run 25 on defense while I figure out who to put in!"

The player was officially disqualified by rule. Rule 10-5-3 says that "the head coach shall not permit a team member to participate after being removed from the floor for disqualification". What the head coach directed his disqualified player to do was "participate", and if the player was "removed from the floor", then he sureashell shouldn't be going back on the floor. Penalty is a direct "T" on the head coach. Let him do what he wants in the bench area, but not out on the floor.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 13th, 2005 at 02:12 PM]

Hmmmmmmm,
I don't know JR...that seems like a stretch IMO.
The player hasn't been removed from the floor yet...he just received his 5th foul.
As long as the DQ'd player is not doing anything unsporting, etc...I'd let him stay on the floor untill he is replaced by the substitute. If he wants to talk to the other players while he waits, fine...the coach does have 30 seconds, so why make a big deal out of it?
Having said that, if my partner wants the player to stand by the bench, that's fine with me also. The player was directed to do so by an official...so I could live with that.

blindzebra · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Hmmmm...not sure I buy that JR. The coach does have 30 seconds to replace the player, but nowhere does it say that those 30 seconds have to be spent standing beside the bench. Said player has not yet been "removed from the floor" until we get the sub onto the court, right?

4-14-2 says once the coach is notified the DQ'd player is out of the game and may not participate, the 30 seconds have NOTHING to do with it.

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:29pm

Rocky, see POE#5 in last year's book:
-E- "If the four players remaining in the game head towards the bench for instruction, they are to remain on the court"
-F- "Only the head coach is supposed to be standing during this interval"

Nothing in there mentions or allows the disqualified player to stay out on the floor.

SamIAm · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:33pm

I am with you JR. 30 seconds to replace him does not mean 30 more seconds to participate, it is merely a time restraint applied to the coach to replace DQ'd player.

RookieDude · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:33pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Hmmmm...not sure I buy that JR. The coach does have 30 seconds to replace the player, but nowhere does it say that those 30 seconds have to be spent standing beside the bench. Said player has not yet been "removed from the floor" until we get the sub onto the court, right?

4-14-2 says once the coach is notified the DQ'd player is out of the game and may not participate, the 30 seconds have NOTHING to do with it.

blindzebra...ya think maybe "participate" means actually playing the game? C'mon, talking to teammates means participation now? Well, I guess we gotta T up all the members of the bench for partcipation when they cheer or give encouragement to their teammates on the floor.

blindzebra · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Hmmmm...not sure I buy that JR. The coach does have 30 seconds to replace the player, but nowhere does it say that those 30 seconds have to be spent standing beside the bench. Said player has not yet been "removed from the floor" until we get the sub onto the court, right?

4-14-2 says once the coach is notified the DQ'd player is out of the game and may not participate, the 30 seconds have NOTHING to do with it.

blindzebra...ya think maybe "participate" means actually playing the game? C'mon, talking to teammates means participation now? Well, I guess we gotta T up all the members of the bench for partcipation when they cheer or give encouragement to their teammates on the floor.

By rule the kid is BENCH PERSONEL once the coach is notified, would you allow him to send a kid off his bench over to tell the other 4 players something during this 30 second period?

Jurassic Referee · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by RookieDude

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Hmmmm...not sure I buy that JR. The coach does have 30 seconds to replace the player, but nowhere does it say that those 30 seconds have to be spent standing beside the bench. Said player has not yet been "removed from the floor" until we get the sub onto the court, right?

4-14-2 says once the coach is notified the DQ'd player is out of the game and may not participate, the 30 seconds have NOTHING to do with it.

blindzebra...ya think maybe "participate" means actually playing the game? C'mon, talking to teammates means participation now?

If he's performing coaching duties out on the court, I would certainly call it "participating". Just talking might be a l'il bit of a stretch, but not coaching.

Camron Rust · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:45pm

Once the coach has been informed, isn't that player now bench personnel. Would you allow any other player on the bench to come out into the floor to instruct the team. Once the player has been informed and has reached the bench, I don't think he has the right to go back onto the floor.

That said, I don't think I'd make an issue of it.

Blackhawk357 · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:45pm

Once the coach has been informed of the 5th foul, the player becomes "bench personel" and the coach is responsible for his actions. That said, I would have no problem with the DQ'ed player talking to his teammates while the sub is checking in. He had better behave himself though, because if he has something to say to me on the way by the coach gets the seatbelt. That's the risk the coach is taking, I quess.

Blackhawk

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Would you allow any other player on the bench to come out into the floor to instruct the team.

Automatic "T". It's not a time-out, and the head coach is the only one allowed to stand. Even the assistant coaches are supposed to remain on the pine, by rule.

rockyroad · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 13, 2005, 02:53pm

OK JR, I can see the point...I guess my take on it was that it wasn't that big a deal - the kid was about two steps away from the rest of the players, was going to turn around and say whatever to them, and partner runs over there and wedges herself into the huddle and makes the player go stand by the bench...seemed kinda overkill to me.

And I know all the stuff about the player now being bench personnel and the T for anything unsporting also going to coach - that's not what I was "confused" about...just didn't understand the partner getting that worked up over that particular issue...