Player COntrol vs. Team Control

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by tjksail

So is there any penalty for these actions?

Only in the minds of coaches, fans, and announcers on TV.

Behind and over IS NOTHING. Going through the player in front, holding down the player in front, or hitting a player's arms who is in front and reaching for the ball vertically are fouls.

Over the back does not exist.

FYI reaching is not a foul either.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Mark,

BIG difference between the "over the back" misconception and using "offensive" instead of "player control". One is people thinking something is a foul when it's not. The other is a concise, easy to understand, and pretty accurate description of the infraction.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE I know, when a PC foul happens, blows the whistle and indicates "offense!" in some way, not "player control" or "team control".

I cannot think of a scenario where a coach would misunderstand me if I told him his player commmitted an "offensive foul".

I know why you feel the way you do, but in this case, I think you're being a little officious.

I am not being little officious. An even better example of terminology that just drives me up the wall is when I hear an official say that the foul was "on the floor." Just what the heck does that mean. Either the foul was against a player in the act of shooting or it wasn't. There is no such thing as an "on the floor" foul.

MTD, Sr.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I am not being little officious. An even better example of terminology that just drives me up the wall is when I hear an official say that the foul was "on the floor." Just what the heck does that mean. Either the foul was against a player in the act of shooting or it wasn't. There is no such thing as an "on the floor" foul.

When I say something is on the floor, I mean that the penalty will be taken on the floor, in other words, it's a throw in. So that's "what the heck" that means.

I don't understand your objection to calling a foul "offensive". As Dan says, it's an adjective, just like saying a foul is "defensive". This is not "making things up" that aren't in the book. It's using English words to describe a situation. Why is that a problem?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by rainmaker

When I say something is on the floor, I mean that the penalty will be taken on the floor, in other words, it's a throw in. So that's "what the heck" that means.

I don't understand your objection to calling a foul "offensive". As Dan says, it's an adjective, just like saying a foul is "defensive". This is not "making things up" that aren't in the book. It's using English words to describe a situation. Why is that a problem?

I object because it does not accurately describe what is happening. A1 can be fouled in the act of shooting and still not be airborne for one thing.

Besides, look at the NFHS Officials Manual or NCAA's CCA 2- or 3-Person Manuals. If the official follows the prescribed mechanics, one does not have to say "on the floor." In fact saying "on the floor" is frowned upon at every camp I have every attended or been a staffer. I do not have my manuals in front of me but I know for a fact that the CCA manuals specifically state the the phrase "on the floor" is not to be used.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I am not being little officious. An even better example of terminology that just drives me up the wall is when I hear an official say that the foul was "on the floor." Just what the heck does that mean. Either the foul was against a player in the act of shooting or it wasn't. There is no such thing as an "on the floor" foul.

When I say something is on the floor, I mean that the penalty will be taken on the floor, in other words, it's a throw in. So that's "what the heck" that means./quote]

Then why don't you say "at the spot" instead of "on the floor"?

[rainmaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Originally posted by rainmaker

When I say something is on the floor, I mean that the penalty will be taken on the floor, in other words, it's a throw in. So that's "what the heck" that means./quote]

Then why don't you say "at the spot" instead of "on the floor"?

Yea, I could. I've never had a problem with "on the floor." I guess when I move to Ohio, I'll have to change my wicked ways, and go with the PC flow.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B ]
I object because it does not accurately describe what is happening. A1 can be fouled in the act of shooting and still not be airborne for one thing. [/B]

It does accurately describe what is happening if the penalty will be a throw-in. If the shooter is fouled before she goes airborne, then I don't say "on the floor" because the penalty will be shots, not a throw-in. See? So when I say "on the floor", it does accurately describe what is happening. That may not be what you hear, that's what I mean.

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B ]Besides, look at the NFHS Officials Manual or NCAA's CCA 2- or 3-Person Manuals. If the official follows the prescribed mechanics, one does not have to say "on the floor." In fact saying "on the floor" is frowned upon at every camp I have every attended or been a staffer. I do not have my manuals in front of me but I know for a fact that the CCA manuals specifically state the the phrase "on the floor" is not to be used. [/B]

Okay, when I'm doing CCA games, I won't say it. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, I'm just saying that your objections aren't entirely based on fact. Not everyone who says, "on the floor" is being fuzzy-headed and flimsy.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Yea, I could. I've never had a problem with "on the floor." I guess when I move to Ohio, I'll have to change my wicked ways, and go with the PC flow.

From my experience you'll want to add more states than just Ohio to that list.

(Personally I have nothing against you saying "on the floor", seems pretty obvious what you mean. But I do like to referee basketball, and shouting "on the floor" would be a way for me to get un-invited from the club. So it's a bit more than PC.)

[rainmaker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Originally posted by rainmaker

From my experience you'll want to add more states than just Ohio to that list.

(Personally I have nothing against you saying "on the floor", seems pretty obvious what you mean. But I do like to referee basketball, and shouting "on the floor" would be a way for me to get un-invited from the club. So it's a bit more than PC.)

How about "White, 33, block, red ball!" Does that work?

Btw, let's not kid ourselves about PC. Of course it's PC. Anytime I do something or say something just because that's how I'm told to, and I'm avoiding rocking the boat because I want to move up, that's PC. It's not PC in the red-state-blue-state way, but it's still PC.

[JRutledge]

This is one of those things that come down to where you live and what is accepted in your area. On the block mechanic you are not suppose to use your fists. Most evaluators where I live do not like the "proper" mechanic and say it looks less strong as using what is essentially the proper mechanic. It just depends on who you work for and what those say. I believe in proper mechanics, but I also believe that some things are minor. Saying "on the floor" to me is very minor. What I can more about are you rewarding a shot during a foul properly. That to me is the bigger problem.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Don't worry, Ohio has more than its share of yahoo's that yell "on the floor." Just don't say it.

MTD, Sr.

[rockyroad]

So Mark and Dan, using your logic about the use of the word "offensive" to communicate the foul call, do you say "Illegal use of the hands", or do you say "hack" or "hit" or "on the arm"??? Cause (unless I'm wrong again) the NFHS book calls it "illegal use of the hands" - right? So you can't call it anything else, right??

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rockyroad
So Mark and Dan, using your logic about the use of the word "offensive" to communicate the foul call, do you say "Illegal use of the hands", or do you say "hack" or "hit" or "on the arm"??? Cause (unless I'm wrong again) the NFHS book calls it "illegal use of the hands" - right? So you can't call it anything else, right??

When reporting I say none of these so it's not an issue for me.

I, for one, could not care less what anybody else calls them.


How about "White, 33, block, red ball!" Does that work?


Sure, unless white's playing blue.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

I, for one, could not care less what anybody else calls them.

[/B][/QUOTE]I, for two, agree with that. I could give a sh*t less what you call them, as long as you call them right!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
How about "White, 33, block, red ball!" Does that work?


Sure, unless white's playing blue.
[/B]

Yea, I've done that before too!