Subs After Made Free Throw

[Wondering]

This has to do with bringing in subs after the last made freethrow.

The "Substitutes" discussion in a recent post by "Just Curious" seemed to conclude that subs after the last made FT were OK, even if they were not for the shooter.

This seems consistent with rulebook 3-3-1c "During multiple free throw personal fouls, substitutions may be made only before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted." In addition, para (d) says they may enter anytime the ball is dead and the clock stopped - which is the case as the last FT drops out of the basket.

There doesn't seem to be any restriction in 3-3-1c on how many subs or for who they are coming in for.

My question is this. Which is official is responsible for bringing them and what is the procedure if the non-shooting team immediately grabs the ball?

I assume the Trail is the responsible official since he is facing the table. But he is also fairly busy counting and watching the players until the ball drops thru the hoop. At that INSTANT is the Trail required to check the table and immediately - before the non-shooting team can grab the ball - and whistle if there are subs reported at the table?

What if the non-shooting team grabs the ball as it falls out of the net? Should the Lead take the ball away so subs can come in?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Wondering
This has to do with bringing in subs after the last made freethrow.

The "Substitutes" discussion in a recent post by "Just Curious" seemed to conclude that subs after the last made FT were OK, even if they were not for the shooter.

This seems consistent with rulebook 3-3-1c "During multiple free throw personal fouls, substitutions may be made only before the final attempt in the sequence and after the final attempt has been converted." In addition, para (d) says they may enter anytime the ball is dead and the clock stopped - which is the case as the last FT drops out of the basket.

There doesn't seem to be any restriction in 3-3-1c on how many subs or for who they are coming in for.

My question is this. Which is official is responsible for bringing them and what is the procedure if the non-shooting team immediately grabs the ball?

I assume the Trail is the responsible official since he is facing the table. But he is also fairly busy counting and watching the players until the ball drops thru the hoop. At that INSTANT is the Trail required to check the table and immediately - before the non-shooting team can grab the ball - and whistle if there are subs reported at the table?

What if the non-shooting team grabs the ball as it falls out of the net? Should the Lead take the ball away so subs can come in?

1) It's not that hard for the Trail to see that subs are waiting to come in.

2) IF the subs are *waiting* at the table, the timer should sound the horn.

3) Even if the non-shooting team has "grabbed the ball", it's still not at their disposal until a player is holding the ball out of bounds facing the table. Let the subs in.

4) If the sub isn't let in because s/he is running to the table as the shot is made, too bad.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Wondering
My question is this. Which is official is responsible for bringing them and what is the procedure if the non-shooting team immediately grabs the ball?

The trail will bring the subs in. but any of the 3 officials may recognize the subs, whistle, and prevent the opponent from inbounding the ball.

I assume the Trail is the responsible official since he is facing the table. But he is also fairly busy counting and watching the players until the ball drops thru the hoop. At that INSTANT is the Trail required to check the table and immediately - before the non-shooting team can grab the ball - and whistle if there are subs reported at the table?

No, the trail official should not be facing the table. There shouldn't be any reason to be counting players at this point either. If the trail closes down, a sub may slip in behind him, in which case the lead or the center may have to whislte and stop play. If I'm at trail, I normally glance over my shoulder as the ball goes through the basket.

What if the non-shooting team grabs the ball as it falls out of the net? Should the Lead take the ball away so subs can come in?

It doesn't matter if the opponent has the ball or not if the subs have properly reported and are at the table.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Originally posted by Wondering

No, the trail official should not be facing the table. There shouldn't be any reason to be counting players at this point either. If the trail closes down, a sub may slip in behind him, in which case the lead or the center may have to whislte and stop play. If I'm at trail, I normally glance over my shoulder as the ball goes through the basket.

In 2 man the trail "faces" the table and has responsibility
for subs at the table during free throws.

[mick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

In 2 man the trail "faces" the table and has responsibility
for subs at the table during free throws.

Dan,
Tony cannot think in those terms. It confuses him.
mick

[Bart Tyson]

All officials are responsible for subs. The official closest to table has the stop sign. Or in two man the new L if after a made basket, during a dead ball.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
All officials are responsible for subs. The official closest to table has the stop sign. Or in two man the new L if after a made basket, during a dead ball.

Sure, in the sense that all officials are responsible for
calling whatever they see. So let's change my post to say
the trail has primary responsibilities for the table
on free throws. If I, as lead, have to blow the whistle
for subs on FTs I'm gonna wonder what else my partner is
missing.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Dan,
Tony cannot think in those terms. It confuses him.
mick

Yeah, I know what you mean. These guys that only do 3 man
tend to get confused when they have to think about more than
their own personal 3 square feet of the floor!

[Bart Tyson]

OK Dan, I thought we were talking about after the last made FT. I know it is just a matter of difinition, However, when the last FT is made, the old T is now the new L. So, the L has the stop sign for the subs. While I don't do two man during the season, i still do some two man in the off season. And its not 3' square, its 3' either direction from where i am standing.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
OK Dan, I thought we were talking about after the last made FT. I know it is just a matter of difinition, However, when the last FT is made, the old T is now the new L. So, the L has the stop sign for the subs...

I guess we were talking about the last made FT but I still
expect the trail/new lead to be aware there's a sub waiting
and blow the whistle as the ball falls thru the basket
(unless the player runs up at the last second) and to give
the stop sign, since he is standing in the middle of the
court and does not have the ball. No biggie.

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
...While I don't do two man during the season, i still do some two man in the off season. And its not 3' square, its 3' either direction from where i am standing.

Ohhhh, that explains why in 3 man we always stand at the
sidelines!

[Bart Tyson]

Wellll, i do believe there is hope for you after-all Dan!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

In 2 man the trail "faces" the table and has responsibility
for subs at the table during free throws.

So you're saying that even while the shooter is shooting the 2nd FT, the trail is still facing the table? You guys, who are still officiating in the dark ages, don't close down and referee the rebound on the 2nd shot?

And you're making fun of three man mechanics?

Sad day.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

So you're saying that even while the shooter is shooting the 2nd FT, the trail is still facing the table? You guys, who are still officiating in the dark ages, don't close down and referee the rebound on the 2nd shot?

And you're making fun of three man mechanics?

Sad day.

We do all of those things. IF the sub is on the way to the table (or at it) any time up until the thrower begins his/her motion, it's easy to see the sub.

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
[QUOTE
If the trail closes down, a sub may slip in behind him, in which case the lead or the center may have to whislte and stop play.

Tony,
I hate it when that happens.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

So you're saying that even while the shooter is shooting the 2nd FT, the trail is still facing the table? You guys, who are still officiating in the dark ages, don't close down and referee the rebound on the 2nd shot?

And you're making fun of three man mechanics?

Sad day.

Uh-oh, Tony's havin' a bad day
No, we don't literaly "face" the table, I put the
quotes there to broaden what I mean by "face" (you
know, it all depends on what the definition of is, is!)
And of course we close down on the shot, & of course
there are times when someone will slip to the table as we're
watching the shot. And of course we're making fun of
3 man mechanics! You guys can take it, you almost
never break a sweat during a game anyway!