"Help" From Partners

nine01c · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 21, 2004, 09:54pm

Just wondering what different philosophies there are to handling "help" from your partner. I mean unsolicited help.

Situation 1)
You are LEAD and there is a tip OOB among a cluster of players. Ball tips off red under the backboard, You call "BLUE!" and point. Then you hear TWEET! and your partner out at the arc is yelling, "No, RED! Blue tipped it out." You are Sure you saw it right (or maybe you made an educated guess), besides it is in YOUR area. Do you switch to his call, or keep you own?

Situation 2)
Similar play, but you are the TRAIL. LEAD has a tip OOB play on the endline. He calls BLUE! You say to yourself. "Hmmm, sure looked like Blue tipped it out to me."
Do you keep your opinion to yourself and just move on, or do you TWEET and offer your version of what you saw?

Would you handle these situations differently if they happened only once in a game as opposed to several times?
Let's assume these things happen despite a thorough pre-game that addressed coverages and helping, etc...Thanks.

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 21, 2004, 10:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by nine01c
Just wondering what different philosophies there are to handling "help" from your partner. I mean unsolicited help.

Situation 1)
You are LEAD and there is a tip OOB among a cluster of players. Ball tips off red under the backboard, You call "BLUE!" and point. Then you hear TWEET! and your partner out at the arc is yelling, "No, RED! Blue tipped it out." You are Sure you saw it right (or maybe you made an educated guess), besides it is in YOUR area. Do you switch to his call, or keep you own?

First of all I do not agree that the official should blow the whistle. Secondly it depends on where the ball was located. If the call is right in front of me and it was obvious that person better have a good reason. If the entire play was right in front of my face, I might change it but we would have a serious talk at halftime or during a timeout.

Quote:

Originally posted by nine01c
Situation 2)
Similar play, but you are the TRAIL. LEAD has a tip OOB play on the endline. He calls BLUE! You say to yourself. "Hmmm, sure looked like Blue tipped it out to me."
Do you keep your opinion to yourself and just move on, or do you TWEET and offer your version of what you saw?

If I have that much doubt in my mind, I am going to have to let that go. It better be something that jumps out at me. And most of what took place better come from my area. If neither are true, than the answer to this one would be no. I am not offering any help.

Quote:

Originally posted by nine01c
Would you handle these situations differently if they happened only once in a game as opposed to several times?
Let's assume these things happen despite a thorough pre-game that addressed coverages and helping, etc...Thanks.

I do discuss these types of plays in my pregames. I am usually very specific as to what kind of plays these are more likely to happen on. A good example of what I am talking about is if the ball started in my area and went across their line. And in the process they did not see the initial contact with the ball that put it out of bounds. But if the play is in their area and right in front of them, I am going to leave it alone.

Peace

refnrev · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 21, 2004, 10:51pm

I've had this problem with a partner this year. It's only his second season and he's a little overzealous and his confidence in his abilities are a bit overrated. He blows everything he sees -- and sometimes he really botches it. I ususally don't say much, but in a very tight girls game he botched an OOB call big time. FRom his position all he could do was guess. I was 10,000% sure it was wrong so I told him and the call was changed. I was referee and he was umpire. I said, "From where you were positioned it looked like white, but you were screened from full view. I'm 10,000% sure it's blue ball or I wouldn't say anything. We want to get it right and let the girls decide the game." He changed it and play resumed. I usually let it go unless it could clearly affect the outcome of the game.
As for his blowing out of his area, it's junt inexperience. I hope he comes to understand it soon, though. It is frustrating

David B · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 21, 2004, 10:52pm

Originally posted by nine01c

Situation 1)
You are LEAD and there is a tip OOB among a cluster of players. Ball tips off red under the backboard, You call "BLUE!" and point. Then you hear TWEET! and your partner out at the arc is yelling, "No, RED! Blue tipped it out." You are Sure you saw it right (or maybe you made an educated guess), besides it is in YOUR area. Do you switch to his call, or keep you own?

Well I would have pregamed this situation and it should not happen but if it did, I would probably go with my partner - since everyone has heard him say what he saw.

Situation 2)
Similar play, but you are the TRAIL. LEAD has a tip OOB play on the endline. He calls BLUE! You say to yourself. "Hmmm, sure looked like Blue tipped it out to me."
Do you keep your opinion to yourself and just move on, or do you TWEET and offer your version of what you saw?

That's his call, I'm not going to say a thing. Now if its a tipped pass or shot that came from my area that's different since lead might not have seen the tip, but on a rebound etc., that's his.

Thanks
David

Adam · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 01:15am

Agreed. I'm not offering help on this play unless it started in my area. I have no business knowing who hit the ball out, and if I do know I'm not letting anyone in on my little secret.

I had a partner earlier this year that did the flip side of this. 2-whistle, I'm T. Ball goes OOB on a rebound, and he blows his whistle and looks to me for help. Not a good situation.

zebraman · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 02:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by nine01c
Just wondering what different philosophies there are to handling "help" from your partner. I mean unsolicited help.

Situation 1)
You are LEAD and there is a tip OOB among a cluster of players. Ball tips off red under the backboard, You call "BLUE!" and point. Then you hear TWEET! and your partner out at the arc is yelling, "No, RED! Blue tipped it out." You are Sure you saw it right (or maybe you made an educated guess), besides it is in YOUR area. Do you switch to his call, or keep you own?

Situation 2)
Similar play, but you are the TRAIL. LEAD has a tip OOB play on the endline. He calls BLUE! You say to yourself. "Hmmm, sure looked like Blue tipped it out to me."
Do you keep your opinion to yourself and just move on, or do you TWEET and offer your version of what you saw?

Would you handle these situations differently if they happened only once in a game as opposed to several times?
Let's assume these things happen despite a thorough pre-game that addressed coverages and helping, etc...Thanks.

I have a very specific pregame on how this is to be handled. If a partner has info to give me, he brings it. It's up to me to change my call or not. If I have info to bring to him, I am only giving him info and it's up to him if he wants to change his call.

The other "rule" is that you don't offer this "info" to your partner unless you are 99% sure that you saw something that he or she didn't. I probably have a partner bring this "help" a couple times per season. I think I have changed my call every time it happens because they don't come in unless they are darn sure.

If I had a partner who couldn't follow the guidelines we set up in pregame, we'd have a serious talk after the game. No excuse for that.

Z

Hey Snaqwells, I don't understand what the problem is in your sitch. If you're trail, you're observing rebounding action right? If it goes out of bounds and your partner didn't see it, why shouldn't he be able to blow his whistle and look to you for help? What am I missing?

Adam · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 09:52am

Sorry,
The entire play was right in front of him, he wasn't shielded (probably watching bodies and missed the ball). There were about 7 or 8 bodies between me and the ball.

You're right, though. I should be willing to respond with help if he asks (assuming I see the play). This cold is making me a bit grumpy, I suppose.

Back In The Saddle · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 11:18am

I had a game at a camp this summer where I was stinking the place up. Couldn't get a call right to save my life. Had a partner offer me help on two oob calls. That day my partner saved my bacon!

This same partner is the one who introduced me to the magic word "help!" This is now my mechanic when the ball goes oob on my line, but not in my area. I hit the whistle, look to my partner and say, "help!" It works better than the old standby, the deer-in-the-headlights stare

nine01c · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 11:25am

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman

I have a very specific pregame on how this is to be handled. If a partner has info to give me, he brings it. It's up to me to change my call or not.

Thanks everyone for your responses. I have worked with two guys who seem to have this knack for being 99% sure (I guess) several times during each game. Personally, I don't want them to bring this "info" on a regular basis when I have already made a call and it is my responsibility. If I have doubt, I will make eye-contact "asking" for his help if he had a better look, before I make a call (guess that's the baseball umpire in me). The unasked for help should be offered on special occasions only, IMO (like everyone and my blind grandmother knows the call is wrong, and maybe it matters because it is not a 40-6 score in the second quarter).

ChuckElias · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 11:37am

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I hit the whistle, look to my partner and say, "help!" It works better than the old standby, the deer-in-the-headlights stare

The problem is that once you say "Help", you've told everyone that you don't have it. If your partner can't help, you can't go with your best or first impression. You have to go with the arrow at that point.

zebraman · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 11:48am

Quote:

Originally posted by nine01c

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman

I have a very specific pregame on how this is to be handled. If a partner has info to give me, he brings it. It's up to me to change my call or not.

Thanks everyone for your responses. I have worked with two guys who seem to have this knack for being 99% sure (I guess) several times during each game. Personally, I don't want them to bring this "info" on a regular basis when I have already made a call and it is my responsibility. If I have doubt, I will make eye-contact "asking" for his help if he had a better look, before I make a call (guess that's the baseball umpire in me). The unasked for help should be offered on special occasions only, IMO (like everyone and my blind grandmother knows the call is wrong, and maybe it matters because it is not a 40-6 score in the second quarter).

One thing you might want to stress in pregame is that those "help situations" where a partner comes and gives you info are those "once in a game" (if that often) situations. Look your partner in the eye when you say that.

Z

Back In The Saddle · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 11:55am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I hit the whistle, look to my partner and say, "help!" It works better than the old standby, the deer-in-the-headlights stare

The problem is that once you say "Help", you've told everyone that you don't have it. If your partner can't help, you can't go with your best or first impression. You have to go with the arrow at that point.

I can see your point. I have had this happen once, and went with my best guess and everybody played on without comment. But I can see how one of those might blow up on me.

ChrisSportsFan · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 11:59am

Sometimes in these "help" situations, by not signaling a direction, the players will begin heading one way or the other and they'll help you out without even knowing you're looking for their help.

lrpalmer3 · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 22, 2004, 12:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I hit the whistle, look to my partner and say, "help!" It works better than the old standby, the deer-in-the-headlights stare

The problem is that once you say "Help", you've told everyone that you don't have it. If your partner can't help, you can't go with your best or first impression. You have to go with the arrow at that point.

Not really. I just got away with this last night. Asked for help, didn't get it, went with my best guess. Wouldn't recommend doing that in the last 2 minutes though.

In the future, I'd like my partner to approach me if I ask for help and he realizes that he didn't get a good look either. That way I can go with my best guess, and it looks like he got the good look. I'm not opposed to alternating possession, but I wouldn't do that in the last 2 minutes either.

stripes · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Dec 23, 2004, 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I hit the whistle, look to my partner and say, "help!" It works better than the old standby, the deer-in-the-headlights stare

The problem is that once you say "Help", you've told everyone that you don't have it. If your partner can't help, you can't go with your best or first impression. You have to go with the arrow at that point.

That's the point of saying help. You don't have it and need help. If you have an impression, go with it and trust your partner to correct you if you are wrong. If he doesn't have it either, you have to go to the arrow, but it happens. I like using help.