What's wrong with you guys?

[rainmaker]

Kris --

The problem here is that we are accustomed to people coming on this board to vent when they are really just mad that they lost and don't want to do the work it would take to get better.

It sounds to me as though you aren't doing that, but others may feel that is how it sounds. I'd like you to e-mail me, and we can chat a little about how I've handled some of this kind of stuff. I think I can help a little, without exposing the raw nerves of you or others on this board who are chary of venting.

juulie

[Kris3333]

You guys asked me to elaborate, so I did. I'm sorry I ever brought up this topic.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Kris3333
You guys asked me to elaborate, so I did. I'm sorry I ever brought up this topic.

Kris --

Please, please e-mail me. I think you and I could have some good gossip together.

[ChuckElias]

Kris, I didn't post to the other thread, b/c I took it for what it was -- a frustrated parent venting -- and honestly, I thought the post just deserved to be ignored. What you or anybody else writes on the internet really doesn't affect me, so I didn't care if you thought the officials were cheating; b/c I know there's a 99.999999% chance that they weren't.

Anyway, your cyber-life doesn't really affect anybody, but. . .

Originally posted by Kris3333
The fourth player to foul out, fouled out because the official called the foul on the wrong person. I asked him to go ask the players who fouled,

You (a professed official) yelled from the stands to the officials on the floor about how to do their jobs? That is unacceptable. If you're watching/observing a game, you sit there and let the officials do their jobs, whether they do it well or poorly. If you have issues with their performance, you go to them -- as an official, not a pissed-off parent -- after the game and ask -- not preach to -- them about the situation(s) that concerned you.

This is unacceptable behavior from a fellow official. I'm not going to be melodramatic and say that you should be suspended or censured by your board. But you should go to your daughter's future games with the mentality that you cannot repeat the mistakes of this game. Remember that you are merely a fan at those games -- not an evaluator, not an assignor, not even an official -- and you have no business whatsoever, NONE, addressing the officials from the stands.

I'm off my soapbox. I don't want to offend you, honest. But I think that point is worth making in a very strong manner.

our player "fouled" her, even though she was completely straight up, because she had been told DO NOT FOUL BEHIND THE THREE POINT ARC.

Kris, you saw the play and I didn't, so if you say she was straight up, then I believe you. But I think it's pretty funny that you consider being told "DO NOT FOUL BEHIND THE THREE POINT ARC" as proof that she wouldn't have fouled the shooter. Because we've never seen a kid foul after being told "No fouls", right?

[Kris3333]

OK, just to make one thing clear here - I was not "yelling from the stands". I was at the score table, keeping the book. I politely asked them to make sure they had the correct players number. I am not a disgruntled parent. I also sat and watched the boys game immediately after (in which I do not have a kid playing), and was almost as schocked at some of the calls in that game as ours (even though they had two completely different officials).

So whatever, I was just trying to make the point in my original post, that I was appalled that the officiating could be so bad. I was hoping to get suggestions on how we can be better and make sure a game like this doesn't happen again. Guess no one cares about that, rather just attacking me.

Merry Christmas.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Kris3333
OK, just to make one thing clear here - I was not "yelling from the stands". I was at the score table, keeping the book. I politely asked them to make sure they had the correct players number. I am not a disgruntled parent. I also sat and watched the boys game immediately after (in which I do not have a kid playing), and was almost as schocked at some of the calls in that game as ours (even though they had two completely different officials).

So whatever, I was just trying to make the point in my original post, that I was appalled that the officiating could be so bad. I was hoping to get suggestions on how we can be better and make sure a game like this doesn't happen again. Guess no one cares about that, rather just attacking me.

Merry Christmas.

Kris, I'm glad you came back to clarify. As I said before, some of us are not very good at this & even those that are have an off night every now & then. Tough to watch. (As bushref demonstrates some of us are not good at a lot of things but that's a whole 'nuther fruit cake. )

But if you are at the table doing the book you cannot question a foul when it's reported, and you were way out of line telling the official to go back & get the correct number. The *most* you can do by way of 'questioning' the official is to have the scorekeeper hit the horn & tell the official you didn't get the number he gave. When he repeats the number it's your job to write it in the book with *no* editiorial comment.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Kris, you saw the play and I didn't, so if you say she was straight up, then I believe you. But I think it's pretty funny that you consider being told "DO NOT FOUL BEHIND THE THREE POINT ARC" as proof that she wouldn't have fouled the shooter. Because we've never seen a kid foul after being told "No fouls", right?

Let's give her the benefit of believing her account. That said,have you ever seen a shooting foul called after the final horn sounds before the shot goes up?

[Robmoz]

Originally posted by Kris3333
OK, just to make one thing clear here - I was not "yelling from the stands". I was at the score table, keeping the book. I politely asked them to make sure they had the correct players number. I am not a disgruntled parent. I also sat and watched the boys game immediately after (in which I do not have a kid playing), and was almost as schocked at some of the calls in that game as ours (even though they had two completely different officials).

So whatever, I was just trying to make the point in my original post, that I was appalled that the officiating could be so bad. I was hoping to get suggestions on how we can be better and make sure a game like this doesn't happen again. Guess no one cares about that, rather just attacking me.

Merry Christmas.

Well, I want to encourage you to continue participating in the Forum! Perhaps you will be able to focus on the positive aspects and come away with improved knowledge to make your game better.

Having said that, please take the following as constructive:

You need to understand that your role as the scorekeeper is really a part of the officiating crew. Your impartiality at the table is just as important as the official on the floor. Be supportive and NEVER show signs of disgust regardless of how poorly the game may be going in your opinion.

Every game has its fair share of "perceived" shocking calls or no-calls. The officials on the floor may not always get it right from your vantage point. Many times the fans, parents, and even the coaches simply do not KNOW the rules which leads them to develop negative opinions about the quality of the officiating when in fact the calls made or not made were right on target!

Although you may have been appalled with what you felt was a poorly officiated game, the way you presented your views was abrasive to say the least especially since you claim to be an official. Your obvious lack of experience dilutes your credibility; couple that with your accusations of cheating and planned tattle tailing and you cannot expect to garner any support from fellow officials. You simply are not qualified nor is it your role to do so.

Suggestions on how to make it better for the future:

• Attend games and "act" as an evaluator with the intent to improve your own skills but offer your observations to the crew only after you've asked them if they are interested in hearing what you have to say - official to official
• Become a student of the rules so you can objectively see the game from an informed perspective.
• Continue to gain experience officiating and learn learn learn
• Always try to be supportive or at least constructive in your criticisms
• Invoke the golden rule whenever possible

Happy Holidays!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
But if you are at the table doing the book you cannot question a foul when it's reported, and you were way out of line telling the official to go back & get the correct number. The *most* you can do by way of 'questioning' the official is to have the scorekeeper hit the horn & tell the official you didn't get the number he gave. When he repeats the number it's your job to write it in the book with *no* editiorial comment.

I'm not so sure of that. As Chuck has mentioned, the scorer is part of the officiating crew. As such, she does have an obligation to get it right. If she sees an obvious error in which player committed the foul, I think requesting the correct number is not out of line if done in the proper manner. I know I've reported the wrong number before.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

I'm not so sure of that. As Chuck has mentioned, the scorer is part of the officiating crew. As such, she does have an obligation to get it right. If she sees an obvious error in which player committed the foul, I think requesting the correct number is not out of line if done in the proper manner. I know I've reported the wrong number before.

Which is why I told her to buzz the official & get him to repeat the number.

The most *I'll* accept from the table is "Are you sure?" or of course "No such number in the book."

I will not accept a scorekeeper telling me to go verify the number with my partners or the players.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Let's give her the benefit of believing her account.

I agree, and said as much in the underlined section.

That said,have you ever seen a shooting foul called after the final horn sounds before the shot goes up?

No. And I'm not even doubting that it happened in Kris's game. I'm only suggesting that we not conclude "she couldn't have fouled the shooter" based on the premise that "the coach told her not to foul the shooter". We've all seen the coach yell "NO FOUL" only to shake his head in disbelief 3 seconds later after his kid commits a foul.

[Goose]

Reading what Dan had written about this situation has deeper meaning than simply believing Chris etc. etc.

I think many of us need to step back and look at the overall picture of the situtation and many like it.

I would say that some of us need to possibly re-examine why and what we work. In this situation, it appears that it was crummy officiating, and yes, we all have bad days, but face it, I've worked with some plain crummy officials bad day or not.

What should concern us more is that we more experienced officials are not working more games of lesser value. More often than not from what I've seen over many years is that the new refs or what are perceived as bad refs only work these CYO, AAU, park and rec. type games. Many of these local in town leagues get the bottom of the barrel, hence the poorly officiated games. Why is it that the same veterans are continually called upon to work with the new guys? I personally know many veteran officals that would never go back and do a CYO game, and I have often been asked by one of those sitting in the stands at their childs game, "why are you still working CYO or park and rec games? Don't you know you are a varsity official?"

Just my opinion, but many are to busy nursing their career ladder to bother with these lesser games. Afterall, they really won't get me the better assignments that I want. Doing a 3rd-4th grade CYO game will not get me towards that goal of D-1 you know, so why bother? Let a new guy or one of the crummy refs work those...not to mention that if so and so is working, I'm not working with that loser! Afterall if the loser makes a bad call and I am working with him, it will reflect poorly on me and my game, and could possibly keep me from advancing. Invariably, the comments that are usually heard are those sounding like "the new guys need to work these games to gain experience, etc.". This may be true, but many of us would not even consider working CYO or the local in town rec leagues any longer. The feeling I get is that after we have become established, that it is now beneath us and that somehow it will demean my current status of "varsity/college" official.

So, Chris comes in here and tells a horror story about poor officiating. Nothing new there, but how many of us if we really care about the game and our profession will offer to "lower" ourselves to go down and work with these newer officials and give these young players a chance to play in a more normal game.

My apologies to those seasoned officials that still lend their services to the local town leagues and CYO type organizations, but unfortunately, there are not enough of us doing this.

So, when someone comes in here complaining, we should look at all angles.

Happy Holidays,

goose

[JRutledge]

Goose,

That is all nice and idealistic, but you cannot tell people what levels they want to work and what they should work. It is not nobler to work lower level games when you have achieved a higher status. I know I work only 3 days out of the week on average so I can balance my work life and my officiating life. I do sometimes work more, but it is not to take on a game I have no desire to work. Some of us have families and other obligations outside of officiating. You cannot tell people you have to work a grammar school game when just doing that game might take you away from another obligation. There is a post on this website where a guy is talking about whether to ref or watch his kid play a game. There is much more to this than "not wanting to work lower grade games." I know I worked my behind off so I did not have to work 5 and 6 days a week as I did when I first started. I am also a relatively younger guy that has been blessed not to have any major knee or leg problems to keep me from running. What about those officials that have been working 20 years and might have had a knee surgery and working 3 or more times a week is a physical struggle?

Goose, I think you need to realize that officiating is a hobby. It is not something that we are obligated to do or obligated to work certain levels. Maybe you can do that, but I know I cannot work anytime I like without making some sacrifices in other aspects of my life. And much of the time it is not worth it to make those sacrifices.

Peace