Ejection or disqualification?

[MattRef]

I had a situation arise in which I have a question about. I was reffing a frshamn boys game about a week ago and here's what happened:
I charged a player in the third period with a technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. He was getting very lippy and wouldn't control himself, so I helped him. In the fourth quarter, I called an intentional foul on him for grabbing an opposing players jersey in an attempt to stop him from driving on him. With that, the player came walking up quickly to me, protesting the call. With that, I T'd him up the second time. The scorer's table informed me that the intentional foul was his fifth, and thus disqualified. When I T'd him up, I did not know that and had not informed him nor his coach of that. Once, I knew, he was promptly replaced and there was no further incident. I received a letter from my state associatin saying I had not reported an ejection, then they gave me the name and school of that same player that I had T'd up. Correct me if I am wrong, but there was nothing done worth an ejection. I never ejected him, nor did my partner, a veteran of many years. Help me out with this. I really want to understand if I have messed up. Thanks!
Matt

[mikesears]

Originally posted by MattRef
I had a situation arise in which I have a question about. I was reffing a frshamn boys game about a week ago and here's what happened:
I charged a player in the third period with a technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. He was getting very lippy and wouldn't control himself, so I helped him. In the fourth quarter, I called an intentional foul on him for grabbing an opposing players jersey in an attempt to stop him from driving on him. With that, the player came walking up quickly to me, protesting the call. With that, I T'd him up the second time. The scorer's table informed me that the intentional foul was his fifth, and thus disqualified. When I T'd him up, I did not know that and had not informed him nor his coach of that. Once, I knew, he was promptly replaced and there was no further incident. I received a letter from my state associatin saying I had not reported an ejection, then they gave me the name and school of that same player that I had T'd up. Correct me if I am wrong, but there was nothing done worth an ejection. I never ejected him, nor did my partner, a veteran of many years. Help me out with this. I really want to understand if I have messed up. Thanks!
Matt

Matt,

NatFed rules state that two technical fouls on any player is an automatic ejection from the game so to answer your question, YES, the player did do something to warrant being ejected. It did not matter that he had commited his fifth foul. I live in Illinois and we are REQUIRED by our State Association to report ALL ejections. A disqualified player (or any player on the bench) can still be ejected.

Hope this helps.

Thanks!

[MattRef]

I just looked up in the rule book, 10-3 (note at the end of the section:
"A single technical foul or the second technical foul charged to a player results in disqualification of the offender to the team bench."
Correct me if I am wrong, but that isn't an ejection. When you eject someone, they have to leave the confines of the court, be it to the locker room or off the school grounds. The DQ just gets you sent to the bench. When you are disqualified after 5 fouls, you aren't ejected, but DQ'd. Same thing applies here.

[Buck Wu]

It seems to me that the player was disqualified by getting his fifth foul and getting his 2nd T at the same time. No matter where he is you gave him two Ts and that has to be reported. Now, these disqualifications mean that he sits on the bench for the rest of the game. I think the NFHS uses ejection and disqualification interchangeably. Whatever you call it, I know that if I give a person two Ts in a school game I have to report it. That player was disqualified and ejected from the game---meaning that he has to sit on the bench. Now, if he would have been Bench personnel and gotten two Ts then he would have to leave the court area. It sounds like there may be some confusion about the terms ejection and disqualification.

[MattRef]

I think I am beginning to understand what has happened here, since you bring up the issue of the NFHS using "disqualified" and "ejected" interchangably. If that is so, then I understand what happened. I think, however, that the wording needs to be clarified so that this confusion doesn't happen again. I can understand the necessity of reporting someone who you had to eject from the court, but perhaps not if they were merely disqualified. Like I said earlier, if a person gets 5 fouls, they get disqualified, but they aren't ejected, and you do not report it to the state. I will get to the bottom of this one way or another. Thanks.
Matt

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mikesears

NatFed rules state that two technical fouls on any player is an automatic ejection from the game so to answer your question, YES, the player did do something to warrant being ejected. It did not matter that he had commited his fifth foul. I live in Illinois and we are REQUIRED by our State Association to report ALL ejections. A disqualified player (or any player on the bench) can still be ejected.

Not so fast Mike. Technically, under NFHS Rule 10, players are disqualified. Matt is correct that players are not to be ejected because they are not to leave the confines of the gym. Players should never leave unless they leave with an authorized adult. Coaches or other adults are ejected and must leave the confines of the gym. I believe the wording is simply a legal issue so that the NF will not be responsible if an official were to "eject" an player.

Now, each state has different rules. Matt, your state evidently considers two technical fouls an ejection. In NC, this would not be an ejection. It would just be a disqualification and would not have to be reported. We only eject players for one of 5 reasons.

1- Fighting
2- Profanity
3- Obscene gestures
4- Taunting/baiting
5- Contacting an official

The important difference is that an ejection results in a 2 game suspension. A disqualification does not result in a suspension. And an official who doesn't report an ejection is fined $25.

A couple of weeks ago, three JV officials in our association were suspended because they didn't handle a fight properly. Since the fight occurred with less than a minute left in the game, they just called a T on each player and didn't eject them. The officials were suspended for the two games, just like the girls should have been if it had been handled properly.

Learn your lesson, take your medicine, and remember to ask if you aren't sure.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The NFHS rule book uses the word ejection only for the Head Coach. It uses the word disqualification for players, substitutes, bench personnel. It does not use the words disqualification and ejection interchangably.

NFHS R4-S14-A1 defines a disqualified player: "one who is barred from further participation in the game because of having committed his/her fifth foul (personal and technical), two technical fouls, or a flagrant foul." Remember that a flagrant foul can be either personal or technical.

NFHS R4-S14-A2 defines when a player becomes officially disqualified and becomes bench personal: "when the coach is notified by an official."

There are Notes in the penalty secions of NFHS R10-S2, 3, 4, and 5, that refer to a substitute, player, bench personnel, and coaches respectively. These Notes define when the party covered in that Section becomes disqualified or ejected and whether that party remains on the bench, or must go the the team's locker room or outside building.

Players, substitutes, and non-adult bench personnel are DISQUALIFIED and must remain on the bench.

Adult bench personnel (other than the Head Coach) are DISQUALIFIED and must go to the team's locker room or leave the building.

The Head Coach is EJECTED and must go to the team's locer room or leave the building.

The confusion between disqualification and ejection started when the NFHS changed the definition of a flagrant foul. Until a few years ago a second technical foul was a flagrant foul by definition. This was a remnant from the days when the penalty for a tecnical foul that was not flagrant or intentional was one free throw. This part of the definition remained in the rules even when the penalty for technical fouls was changed to two free throws for all technical fouls. Finally, the NFHS rewrote (but did not change what is a disqualified player) the disqualified player definition and the flagrant foul definition was rewritten to reflect these other changes.

The real question is whether the disqualification is the result of an unsportmanlike act. In the original play the second technical foul (even though it was the player's fifth foul) was unsportsmanlike and he was disqualified for for receiving a second technical fou. When a second technical foul is involved it is better to go ahead and send a report to the proper authorities and let them decide how the player, substitute, bench personnel, or head coach should be handled.

[Buck Wu]

Mark,

What if bench personnel gets two technical fouls? Does anyone from the bench have to leave if the T was directed towards a particular person on the bench. I know the head coach would not have to leave because that would be his/her second indirect. What would happen in that case? Thanks for your information about disqualification and ejection. That was a good explanation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Buck Wu
Mark,

What if bench personnel gets two technical fouls? Does anyone from the bench have to leave if the T was directed towards a particular person on the bench. I know the head coach would not have to leave because that would be his/her second indirect. What would happen in that case? Thanks for your information about disqualification and ejection. That was a good explanation.

You can't call a T and assess it to the bench. If a T is called, it must be assessed to someone. If a substitute or a student manager ot trainer receives two Ts, they do not leave the bench. But any adult that receives 2 Ts must leave the playing confines.

[Brian Watson]

It might help if you break down how the disqualification occurs. Was it through the natural flow of the game, or was it an exception?

For example, in track if a kid false starts, he/she is gone. Now, just because I DQ'd the kid does not mean I need to write it up, it is a natural part of the sport.

Now, if a kid lips off and I DQ them for the meet, I have to write it up. This is not a natural or expected part of the rules and is considered unsportsmanlike.

In Basketball fouling out after five fouls is a natural part of the rules. Coaches hate to see it, but it is not "exceptional". T's are an exceptional call. Something out side of the normal must occur for them to happen, thus they are unsportsmanlike and, if required, must be reported when a player gets two. Regardless of when that second one came. If a kid fouls out, then pops off at you from the bench 2 minutes later, I am still going to write him up if that is his second T.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by mikesears

Matt,

NatFed rules state that two technical fouls on any player is an automatic ejection from the game so to answer your question, YES, the player did do something to warrant being ejected. It did not matter that he had commited his fifth foul. I live in Illinois and we are REQUIRED by our State Association to report ALL ejections. A disqualified player (or any player on the bench) can still be ejected.

Hope this helps.

Thanks!

I hate symantecs but it is important.

Two technicals and a player is Disqualified. Two direct or three indirect (and various other combinations) on a coach and he is EJECTED. Important distinction. Never have had a player disqualified because of two T's in my short time as an official.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I need to clarify two things.

1) As a said before, disqualification applies to players, substitutes, and bench personnel. And disqualification AND ejection applies to the Head Coach.

Do not get hung up on the words disqualification and ejection. Diqualification means that the person is no longer allowed to partcipate in the game: player/substitute, assistant coach, head coach, and other bench personnel. Even though all adults who are disqualified must go either to the locker room or leave the building. Why the word ejection is also applied to the head coach only, I do not know the answer.

The Note in the penalty section of both NFHS R10-S4 and S5 use the verbs SHALL GO to the locker room and LEAVE the building when refering to adult bench personnel other that the head coach who have been disqualified. But when the head coach is involved the words DISQUALIFICATION and EJECTION to the team's locker room or outside the building.

The thing to remember is that two direct technical fouls charged to anybody means that person is disqualified. Where that person then goes is determined by rule. And it never hurts to file a report with the proper authorities so that the disqualification is on record.

2) I previously said that the penalty for technical fouls that were not flagrant or intentional was only one free throw, but I forgot to mention that the penalty was two free throws for intentional and flagrant technical fouls.

[MattRef]

Well, to help things out here a bit, here is what I learned when I contacted the state. Even though the rule book states that the player is merely disqualified from the contest, the state still wants it reported as an ejection and the player will get suspended for one game. I understand now how the state here wants it done, so it's no big deal. The head basketball guy here in Iowa was very helpful and understanding as to my confusion. They are going to try to have a clinic with the next rules meetings for all of the young refs. I will be there in spades. Thanks guys for all of your help.
Matt

[Just Curious]

On the Intentional foul, being his fifth, he was disqualified from the contest. Now being disqualified and considered bench personell, would the 2nd "T" be considered an indirect to the Head Coach?

[Brian Watson]

If you notified the coach.