Intentional Foul at End of Game

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by regas14
And still confusion persists.

If everyone in the gym knows they are going to purposely (notice the use of the word purposely instead of intentionally) foul then the only differentiation between an intential foul and a non-intentional foul is a token swipe at the ball?

I don't know how many different times I'll need to say this, but I'm getting ready for my first year of officiating so obviously my views come without a wealth of experience.

I think we would all recognize a foul made with the primary intent to hurt/punish the opposing player as an intentional foul. We all would also recognize a run-of-the-mill foul as being just a standard foul. In between is a lot of gray area for me. I can't imagine it being as black and white as some have painted it and my initial reaction is that a number of factors come into play:

Severity/violence of the foul
Emotions within the game (is this likely to spark an altercation?)
Intimidation factor (was the foul made in such a way as to intimidate or bully the offensive player?)
Safety of the players (was the offensive player in a defenseless position or braced for the foul?)
Excessiveness of the contact (did the defender make the minimum or maximum contact to draw the foul?)

Until the strategy of committing fouls to prolong the game is regulated, this will remain a very gray area for officials. Does anyone have thoughts on my criteria?

So much depends on the level of the players. In varsity play, most fouls on the back of the ball handler are intentional, especially near the end of the game. Many grabs of the jersey are intentional, especially in the back, especially near the end of the game. Emotions and intimidation lead more to the "excessive contact" end of the "intentional" call, and can even get to the T or the flagrant. If there's any chance the the defender was trying to get the ball, or influence the movement of the ball, I don't call an intentional.

When the team that is trying to foul (note that in the books this past season this is called a "strategic" foul) is just slow and unskilled, and the team with the ball is successfully dodging the contact, you've got to skate the line very carefully. If the team with the ball (and presumably the lead) wants to run time off the clock, they aren't going to welcome the call on the first little contact that happens. But on the other hand, they don't want the defense to get rough in order to get the call. Call it when it's legitimate, but don't be too quick with the whistle.

You've got to draw your own lines, and be sure your lines are reasonably close to the lines drawn by other s in your area. Then you've got to be awayre of the game sitaution, and pay attention to what's happening. DOn't zone out at the end! Watch lots of other games, and figure out what others are going to do in situations so you can fit into your association.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by regas14

(1)If everyone in the gym knows they are going to purposely (notice the use of the word purposely instead of intentionally) foul then the only differentiation between an intential foul and a non-intentional foul is a token swipe at the ball?

(2)I think we would all recognize a foul made with the primary intent to hurt/punish the opposing player as an intentional foul.

(3)We all would also recognize a run-of-the-mill foul as being just a standard foul. In between is a lot of gray area for me.

Yeah, I think that you don't have a clue what an intentional foul really is. And you're thinking waaaaaay too much for someone who has never actually officiated a game in their life.The best way to find out about something is to usually to read the appropriate rule. In this case, that would be FED R4-19-3. Note the part of R4-19-3 that says the act may or may NOT be premeditated and that it ISN'T based the severity of the contact. You very obviously do NOT know the different foul definitions.

I had to edit and go back and comment on the points above because they are so badly wrong.

(1)We punish the act as per the definition of an intentional foul. What everyone in the gym thinks or "knows" isn't relevant to the call.
(2)Trying to hurt/punish an opponent is a FLAGRANT foul. Completely different animal, and defined as such in the rules.
(3)A run of the mill foul can STILL be an intentional foul, depending on how and when it is committed.

Lah me!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:11 PM]

[coachgbert]

Having just finished up a tournament season as a coach of a 7th grade girls AAU team I can honestly say no one around here calls an intentional foul. My point guard was fouled end of game, 7 seconds left, we are up by 1 We in bound ball and the defender grabs my point by the shoulders and throws her into the screen between the two courts. (I should mention that my point was a 4'8" 6th grader playing up and the defender literally tossed her across the floor. The other coach even pulled his player after that). I asked if it was intentional. Ref asks me if I think I'm playing in the NBA and that there is no intentional in NFHS rules, says I should read the rule book, etc.

He wasn't the only ref not to call an intentional. 9 weeks, 9 tournaments, around 40 games played and watched another 40 or so and never an intentional, boys or girls, didn't matter what grade level. I spoke with one of the officials after a tournament and he said that they are told to hold off on the intentionals, so rarely is it called.

Not a complaint, just an observation that the intentional is not something we see around here very often no matter what the level of play.

Coach G

[26 Year Gap]

I called one on a bear hug from behind in an AAU game recently. About 20 seconds left in a 5 point game. The coach questioned the call. You are correct that it is not called as often as it should be, but the situation you describe sounds more like a flagrant foul.

[regas14]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yeah, I think that you don't have a clue what an intentional foul really is. And you're thinking waaaaaay too much for someone who has never actually officiated a game in their life.The best way to find out about something is to usually to read the appropriate rule. In this case, that would be FED R4-19-3. Note the part of R4-19-3 that says the act may or may NOT be premeditated and that it ISN'T based the severity of the contact. You very obviously do NOT know the different foul definitions.

I had to edit and go back and comment on the points above because they are so badly wrong.

(1)We punish the act as per the definition of an intentional foul. What everyone in the gym thinks or "knows" isn't relevant to the call.
(2)Trying to hurt/punish an opponent is a FLAGRANT foul. Completely different animal, and defined as such in the rules.
(3)A run of the mill foul can STILL be an intentional foul, depending on how and when it is committed.

Lah me!

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 28th, 2005 at 06:11 PM]

That was a little harsh. I understand and appreciate your points. I have made an initial read through the rules, but I also know what I see from officials at all levels of basketball. From 15 years of participating in and watching basketball I would say that at least 95% of officials do not make an intentional foul call according to the letter of the law. My comment was looking for guidance on how the experts on this board distinguish which fouls to call intentional at that stage of the game and which to simply call as a run-of-the-mill foul because I think we all know that there are fouls that fit the definition of intentional which are not called that way in this situation. Take the opportunity to offer some guidance not a belittling lecture

Based on what you're telling me in this post, you would call an intentional foul anytime a foul is committed at the end of the game by the trailing team if their intent is to commit a foul to stop the clock. In all my years around basketball I have never seen an official take that stance in reality.

Is this the way most of the officials around you call these or are you one of a few hardliners?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by regas14

That was a little harsh. I understand and appreciate your points. I have made an initial read through the rules, but I also know what I see from officials at all levels of basketball. From 15 years of participating in and watching basketball I would say that at least 95% of officials do not make an intentional foul call according to the letter of the law. My comment was looking for guidance on how the experts on this board distinguish which fouls to call intentional at that stage of the game and which to simply call as a run-of-the-mill foul because I think we all know that there are fouls that fit the definition of intentional which are not called that way in this situation. Take the opportunity to offer some guidance not a belittling lecture

Based on what you're telling me in this post, you would call an intentional foul anytime a foul is committed at the end of the game by the trailing team if their intent is to commit a foul to stop the clock. In all my years around basketball I have never seen an official take that stance in reality.

Is this the way most of the officials around you call these or are you one of a few hardliners?

Regas-- Jurassic Referee is our resident curmudgeon. He's also an assignor, and as his name implies, our most experienced official, except for Padgett, who was reffing basketball before Naismith was out of diapers.

Jurassic reacted to what he read in your comments, which looked like criticism of referees in general, based on little or no experience as a ref. If that wasn't what you intended -- and it sounds like it wasn't -- then he'll apologize.

We all get a little testy this time of year since from March through June there are an increased number of fans who come here trying to dump on referees in the form of innocent questions. You probably are not one of those, but it looked for a few posts as though you were. We will try to see you more as a new ref and not as a troll, and we'd ask you to word your questions carefully so that Jurassic doesn't go off again.

We don't like trolls at all, but we love new refs. It's always a lot of fun to see how far we can lead them into seriously discussing whether to wear a belt, what brand of shoe is best, and which TV announcer is the all-time worst (you have to choose between Billy Packer and Bill Walton each of whom gets at least a couple of plaques a year for Most Ridiculous Comment, and each of whom has won a couple of Idiot of the Year trophies). Welcome to the board!

[regas14]

Thanks Rainmaker,

I really am here to improve my knowledge and ability to execute the rules of the game. To me, and apparently others as evident by the fact that this thread exists, this is a real gray area. The real-world application of this rule has obviously moved away from the letter of the law allowing for much interpretation and I was hoping by listing the criteria I think of in watching a game others would be able to share their thought process in deciding whether or not to make the intentional foul call.

No hard feelings Jurassic.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by regas14
I would say that at least 95% of officials do not make an intentional foul call according to the letter of the law.

That's a good lesson to learn -- learn the "spirit and intent" of the rule, not (just) the "letter of the rule."

On the intentional fouls -- fouls from the front are usually not intentional; fouls from the back are more likely to be. Fouls away from the ball (and when not just "over aggressively" stopping the offensive player from getting to a spot) are more likley to be intentional than fouls on the player with the ball.

IF it's close, give the benefit of the doubt to the defense on the first one, but quietly admonish the defense to be sure they are "going for the ball." Give the benefit of the doubt to the offense on the next one.

Similarly, if it's not close (and not intentional), praise the defense for "going for the ball". Let them know that you're watching and properly giving the appropriate call on the first foul.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Not according to a POE issued by the NFHS in the 2000-2001 rulebook--i.e. POE #5- "Acts that must be deemed intentional include when a coach/player says 'watch,we're going to foul'". Lot of discussion about that one back then.

I thought the fed made editorial changes this year to clarify that a coach yelling "Foul 'em!" is NOT an automatic intentional, which over rules this (incredibly stupid) POE and introduces into the rules the idea of a strategic foul at the HS level.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

I thought the fed made editorial changes this year to clarify that a coach yelling "Foul 'em!" is NOT an automatic intentional, which over rules this (incredibly stupid) POE and introduces into the rules the idea of a strategic foul at the HS level.

Dan, the post that you are citing was made by me back on December 4, 2004. This is a very old thread brought back to life. Iow, I made that post long before the FEd issued that clarification, and at the time of the post that criteria was still valid. As far as I know the rest of the points in that POE are still valid also. That POE Said:

An intentional foul has occurred when a team has obviously committed a foul, late in the game, to stop the clock and force the opponent into a throw-in or free throw situation. Acts that must be deemed intentional include:
- grabbing a player from behind
- wrapping the arms around a player
- grabbing a player away from the ball
- grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be made
- excessive contact on a player attempting a shot
- grabbing/holding a player by the jersey in order to impede their progress

I agree that the part of the POE regarding the coach telling a player to foul was ridiculous.The FED probably clarifed that one again because nobody would make that particular call anyway. The other points from that POE that I listed above are still valid and germane imo, and also still form a good guideline on how/when to call an intentional foul.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Dan, the post that you are citing was made by me back on December 4, 2004. This is a very old thread brought back to life. Iow, I made that post long before the FEd issued that clarification, and at the time of the post that criteria was still valid. /

Oh. I hate when that happens.

As far as I know the rest of the points in that POE are still valid also. That POE Said:

An intentional foul has occurred when a team has obviously committed a foul, late in the game, to stop the clock and force the opponent into a throw-in or free throw situation. Acts that must be deemed intentional include:
- grabbing a player from behind
- wrapping the arms around a player
- grabbing a player away from the ball
- grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be made
- excessive contact on a player attempting a shot
- grabbing/holding a player by the jersey in order to impede their progress

I agree that the part of the POE regarding the coach telling a player to foul was ridiculous.The FED probably clarifed that one again because nobody would make that particular call anyway. The other points from that POE that I listed above are still valid and germane imo, and also still form a good guideline on how/when to call an intentional foul.

Yes, all other points remain valid, whether at the end of game or not.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by regas14
If everyone in the gym knows they are going to purposely foul then the only differentiation between an intential foul and a non-intentional foul is a token swipe at the ball?

Despite Jurassic's indignation, this is essentially true. If you make a play at the ball, then the foul will be called common; even when everyone knows it was done to stop the clock.

If you grab the player, or push (especially from behind), without even trying for the ball, then it's much more likely to be intentional.

I'm not sure why that particular comment provoked JR's ire.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I'm not sure why that particular comment provoked JR's ire.

He's just having an Oscar (the Grouch) moment.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by regas14
And still confusion persists.

If everyone in the gym knows they are going to purposely (notice the use of the word purposely instead of intentionally) foul then the only differentiation between an intential foul and a non-intentional foul is a token swipe at the ball?

I don't know how many different times I'll need to say this, but I'm getting ready for my first year of officiating so obviously my views come without a wealth of experience.

I think we would all recognize a foul made with the primary intent to hurt/punish the opposing player as an intentional foul. We all would also recognize a run-of-the-mill foul as being just a standard foul. In between is a lot of gray area for me. I can't imagine it being as black and white as some have painted it and my initial reaction is that a number of factors come into play:

Severity/violence of the foul
Emotions within the game (is this likely to spark an altercation?)
Intimidation factor (was the foul made in such a way as to intimidate or bully the offensive player?)
Safety of the players (was the offensive player in a defenseless position or braced for the foul?)
Excessiveness of the contact (did the defender make the minimum or maximum contact to draw the foul?)

Until the strategy of committing fouls to prolong the game is regulated, this will remain a very gray area for officials. Does anyone have thoughts on my criteria?

I have seen this thread and didn't bother reading it until now. I read the first page and realized it was old and then I went to the last page to see why it was being posted to again. I stopped after the first post on page three.

This is the problem with young(er) officials. You are talking way too much about your views for someone who hasn't worked a year yet! You really shouldn't have such a long post to begin with. Listen, listen, listen should be your main role in any officiating conversation followed by questions. There is so much you don't know about officiating at this point and it is really laughable to see such a long post with your views

I'm not saying shut up and color but shut up and col...no I'm just kidding

Listening, nodding your head, asking questions and saying OK should be the main things you are doing at this point. This business about intentional fouls isn't so cut and dried or black and white to the point where someone can post the guidelines for calling it. Many factors could come into play. Since almost all games are taped we must also do what is acceptable to our supervisors/assigners. At camp we were told that our games will be available for viewing or download via the internet 2 hours after the game. I will still be on the road and the assigner can be watching how I let someone get mugged or called an intentional foul that virtually ended the game! Many factors involved.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by tomegun
[ Since almost all games are taped we must also do what is acceptable to our supervisors/assigners. At camp we were told that our games will be available for viewing or download via the internet 2 hours after the game. I will still be on the road and the assigner can be watching how I let someone get mugged or called an intentional foul that virtually ended the game!

I expect Regas will be starting as we all did at the MS and lower HS level. Few, if any, games taped, and NONE posted on the web. He needs words because that's all he's gonna get for a few years. Your advice to shut up and listen would be more helpful if there were accompanied by some words of description telling what is and what isn't an intentional foul.