Ejection

[Redhouse]

JR, I agree with you 100%. that is kind of the point that i was trying to get across. Apparently there are some associations where the officials must constantly watch their backs so that they don't get screwed when they make a certain call.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by bob jenkins


That's also my understanding. That said, it's not up to us to enforce this rule.

I'd mention it to the coach, and I'd include whether s/he coached the V game in my report to the state.

Don't most places in IL play the Soph game before the V game? The JVs usually play on Saturday morning or Mondday (?) nights.

This is really an issue of semantics. But most of the state calls the game before the varsity game the JV game. It seems that only the big schools and mainly the schools in the Chicago area call the prelim game the sophomore game. I think mostly because most school in our area tend to have more kids and can make a distinction between who is really the JV team and Soph team. I have a few games down south this season and they call those teams the JV team. Many places do not play JV games on Saturday morning. Many schools play a freshman game at that time. That is one of the rare times they can get an open gym at their schools. So I am sure that tjones is just referring to what goes on in the place he lives.

Back to the original post. If a coach is ejected in the JV game before the varsity game, he/she cannot participate in any varsity game for 10 days or has to sit out one JV game (or the level they were thrown out at) which ever comes first. If your crew ejected a coach during the JV game, do not allow them to sit on the bench or in the gym during that varsity game. If they insist on not leaving, just put that in the report you have to send to the IHSA and let them deal with it. They might forfeit games or lost part of the season to suspension. So usually the coaches understand the possibilities and never test that rule.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by gordon30307

If the Varsity Coach is coaching the JV game you best not dump him/her. Not worth the grief that will follow you for the rest of your career.

Are you saying that if the Varsity Coach is coaching the JV team and he does something for which the penalty is to be ejected, you would not eject him because you have to think about your officiating career?

MTD, Sr. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yup. Assignors don't look kindly on this. Nor do the AD's If I were to eject it better be for an extremely, extremely, extremely good reason. Guys who have done it regretted doing it. If it does come to that it's probably my fault for not using good game management and nipping it in the bud. Incidently I've never come close to this occurring. [/B][/QUOTE]


Gordon:

If you were working with me and you didn't dump a coach that should have been dumped, assignors and AD's would be the least of your worries, because when I got done with you in the dressing room after the game would have at least two of not more new butt holes to sit on. That is the damn problem with too many officials today. Instead of during the job correctly they only worry about their own career instead of the good of the game and the profession. I am not the perfect official but I strive to be professional and ethical in everything I do. I do not know how long you have been officiating but your attitude just frys my fanny.

MTD, Sr.

[gordon30307]

Gordon:

If you were working with me and you didn't dump a coach that should have been dumped, assignors and AD's would be the least of your worries, because when I got done with you in the dressing room after the game would have at least two of not more new butt holes to sit on. That is the damn problem with too many officials today. Instead of during the job correctly they only worry about their own career instead of the good of the game and the profession. I am not the perfect official but I strive to be professional and ethical in everything I do. I do not know how long you have been officiating but your attitude just frys my fanny.

MTD, Sr. [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe in your world I'd dump him. If you were in my world you might think differently. How dare you question my integrity you don't know me. You're getting personal and your remarks are out of line. Nuff said.

Go Michigan. How could Ohio State lose to Northwestern?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by gordon30307

Gordon:

If you were working with me and you didn't dump a coach that should have been dumped, assignors and AD's would be the least of your worries, because when I got done with you in the dressing room after the game would have at least two of not more new butt holes to sit on. That is the damn problem with too many officials today. Instead of during the job correctly they only worry about their own career instead of the good of the game and the profession. I am not the perfect official but I strive to be professional and ethical in everything I do. I do not know how long you have been officiating but your attitude just frys my fanny.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe in your world I'd dump him. If you were in my world you might think differently. How dare you question my integrity you don't know me. You're getting personal and your remarks are out of line. Nuff said.

Go Michigan. How could Ohio State lose to Northwestern?


[/B][/QUOTE]


Gordon:

I am not making this personal per se, and that I do not know you. But I do know you and you are damn right when you state I am questioning your integrity.


From Merriam-WebsterÂ’s Online Dictionary:

Main Entry: in•teg•ri•ty
Pronunciation: in-'te-gr&-tE
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English integrite, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French integrité, from Latin integritat-, integritas, from integr-, integer entire
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : INCORRUPTIBILITY
2 : an unimpaired condition : SOUNDNESS
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : COMPLETENESS
synonym see HONESTY

You stated that you would not eject a coach even though he deserved to be ejected because the ejection would affect your career as a basketball official. I suggest that you log onto NASO.org and NFHS.org and read these two organizations codes of ethics for officials. An official's first responsibility is to the safety of the participants. An official's second responsibility is to see that the integrity of the particular game he is officiating is protected. An official's third responsibility is to protect the integrity of the sport he is officiating. When an official deliberately refuses to carry out these responsibilities then he does a great disservice to the game he is officiating, the sport he officiates, and his officiating profession.

Some people think that officiating is a avocation, but officiating is a profession masquerading as an avocation. When one accepts the responsibility of officiating, whether he is paid for his services or volunteers his services he is bound to perform his duties in accordance with the code of ethics for officiating. If an official finds that he cannot follow the code then is honor bound to refrain from officiating.

You are probably thinking: What a sanctimonious ***! Well I am not the perfect basketball official, but I work hard at being the best basketball official I can be. And I also strive to conduct myself in a professional and ethical manner, because to do otherwise would be a breech of my responsibility to the officiating profession.

More importantly, when you deliberately fail to apply the correct penalty with regard to a coachÂ’s unsportsmanlike action, it tells that coach that he owns you; that he can act in an unsportsmanlike manner with impunity. It means the officials who come after you to officiate his teamÂ’s games, will find him even harder to control because you failed to do your job when you officiated his team.

MTD, Sr.

[SMEngmann]

Obviously I don't live where either of you live, but I agree totally with Mark. Any time you make a decision, you need to make the right call and to handle a situation appropriately. Anything other than that just gets you in more trouble down the road. In my associations, officials get dinged for not enforcing the rules of bench decorum. In the short term, not ejecting the coach may help you politically, but over the long run, it could cost you bigger games (again, I could be wrong based on the area).

As for the AD, I would ream the coach if I were the AD and the V HC got tossed from the JV game. A guy who is in that position probably shouldn't be coaching, and his career would likely be very short, to the point where you might not have a political problem. As for the assignor, he will probably have to take s*** from the school if your actions weren't warranted, but then that wouldn't make a difference which game you were working.

Finally, what do you say to the young ref who has to deal with the coach in the next JV game he does? That kid will be in for a rough night without possessing the confidence or game management skills that you have. Gordon, valid point about you'd need to control it before, but there's only so much you can control, if a coach gets ejected, in your mind, he's earned it.

[gordon30307]

Mark,

How can you not make it "not personal per se" and then question my integrity. Are you not a "moderator" and as such I think your reply is quite "unprofessional" from a person in your position.

Have a nice Thanksgiving.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by gordon30307
Mark,

How can you not make it "not personal per se" and then question my integrity. Are you not a "moderator" and as such I think your reply is quite "unprofessional" from a person in your position.

Have a nice Thanksgiving.

Gordon:

You are missing the point. Before thousands of officials you have stated that you would NOT correctly enforce the rules of basketball if in doing so it would hinder your basketball officiating career. You publicly stated that you would willingly violate the cannons of officiating ethics to further your career. If you are going to publicly announce that you will violate the cannons of ethics of our profession so that you can further your career as a basketball official then you must be prepared to reap what you sowed. If you do not like being publicly taken to task for unethical or unprofessional behavior then donÂ’t go bragging about it. In other words, if you canÂ’t stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen.

I stated earlier that I am not a perfect basketball official but I have officiated basketball at the: boysÂ’/girlsÂ’ H.S. level for 34 years; womenÂ’s college for 31 years (31 years ago I was the first male to officiate womenÂ’s college basketball in the State of Florida and one of the first males in the Southeast), including 18 Div. I playoff games and 20 jr. college playoff games; and menÂ’s college basketball for 12 years. Since 1993 I have officiated over 30 AAU and YBOA boysÂ’ and girlsÂ’ national championship tournaments (including 4 YBOA girlsÂ’ national title games in the last 5 years) plus one PAL boysÂ’/girlsÂ’ national championship (including the boysÂ’ 16U national title game). I sit on four IAABO national committees. I am a rules interpreter for my local officials association and teach its officiating class.

What does the preceding paragraph mean? For one thing it means that I am a bald old geezer who is long in the tooth and has just seen about everything possible until the next new thread really does come up with something I have not seen or heard of before. It also means that I am a crusty old curmudgeon who has the experience, knowledge, and hopefully the wisdom to take a young whippersnapper like you to task for unthical and unprofessional behavior.

I do not expect every official to sit on national committees or be rules interpreters or instructors, but every official should conduct himself in an ethical and professional manner with regard to the profession. If that official cannot do that then he should not officiate.


MTD, Sr.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gordon:

You are missing the point. Before thousands of officials you have stated that you would NOT correctly enforce the rules of basketball if in doing so it would hinder your basketball officiating career. You publicly stated that you would willingly violate the cannons of officiating ethics to further your career. If you are going to publicly announce that you will violate the cannons of ethics of our profession so that you can further your career as a basketball official then you must be prepared to reap what you sowed. If you do not like being publicly taken to task for unethical or unprofessional behavior then donÂ’t go bragging about it. In other words, if you canÂ’t stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen.

I stated earlier that I am not a perfect basketball official but I have officiated basketball at the: boysÂ’/girlsÂ’ H.S. level for 34 years; womenÂ’s college for 31 years (31 years ago I was the first male to officiate womenÂ’s college basketball in the State of Florida and one of the first males in the Southeast), including 18 Div. I playoff games and 20 jr. college playoff games; and menÂ’s college basketball for 12 years. Since 1993 I have officiated over 30 AAU and YBOA boysÂ’ and girlsÂ’ national championship tournaments (including 4 YBOA girlsÂ’ national title games in the last 5 years) plus one PAL boysÂ’/girlsÂ’ national championship (including the boysÂ’ 16U national title game). I sit on four IAABO national committees. I am a rules interpreter for my local officials association and teach its officiating class.

What does the preceding paragraph mean? For one thing it means that I am a bald old geezer who is long in the tooth and has just seen about everything possible until the next new thread really does come up with something I have not seen or heard of before. It also means that I am a crusty old curmudgeon who has the experience, knowledge, and hopefully the wisdom to take a young whippersnapper like you to task for unthical and unprofessional behavior.

I do not expect every official to sit on national committees or be rules interpreters or instructors, but every official should conduct himself in an ethical and professional manner with regard to the profession. If that official cannot do that then he should not officiate.


MTD, Sr.

Did you bother to read what I said. In a normal situation an ejection results in a one game suspension. I will eject as needed. In my nape of the neck (to quote Chevy Chase) you must sit one game at the level that you are participating in. ergo the next JV game may not occur for one, or two weeks. With a routine ejection, obnoxious coach to T's etc. the punishment doesn't fit the crime. That being said a fight, racial slurs etc. the coach or player is gone. Since I have superb (something that you seem to lack) people skills I have gotten coaches to sit players who are a the verge of crossing the line.

Prior to a JV game as part my pregame this is discussed with my partner the consequences of an ejection and we are on alert for possible situations that may escalate. An as Barney says "nip it in the bud."

Incidently I have never had a situation where I had to launch someone in a JV game.

Now if using common sense and good game management is unethical then I guess I am.

I knew you were a crabby old man. In spite of that have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by gordon30307

Did you bother to read what I said. In a normal situation an ejection results in a one game suspension. I will eject as needed. In my nape of the neck (to quote Chevy Chase) you must sit one game at the level that you are participating in. ergo the next JV game may not occur for one, or two weeks. With a routine ejection, obnoxious coach to T's etc. the punishment doesn't fit the crime. That being said a fight, racial slurs etc. the coach or player is gone. Since I have superb (something that you seem to lack) people skills I have gotten coaches to sit players who are a the verge of crossing the line.

Prior to a JV game as part my pregame this is discussed with my partner the consequences of an ejection and we are on alert for possible situations that may escalate. An as Barney says "nip it in the bud."

Incidently I have never had a situation where I had to launch someone in a JV game.

Now if using common sense and good game management is unethical then I guess I am.

I knew you were a crabby old man. In spite of that have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Gordon:

Here are the ejection penalties for the games under the jurisdiction of the OhioHSAA (player or coach):

1) First ejection: two game suspension at the level of the game in which the ejection occured. That means if the Varsity coach is sitting on the bench during a freshmen game (and there are times when we have freshmen/jr. varsity/varsity triple headers here in Ohio) and he gets ejected from the freshmen game, he is done for the rest of the evening and suspended from coaching at freshmen, jr. varsity and varsity until the freshmen team has played two games. This penalty is also the same for players, because OhioHSAA rules state that H.S. players are limited to 80 quarters of basketball during the basketball regular season.

2) Second ejection: suspended the remainder of the season. If the person ejected is a coach, the coach and his principal must have a personal meeting with the Commissioner of the OhioHSAA before he can return to coaching. And if I were a coach in a school that lived in the fartherest reaches of Ohio from Columbus, that is not one automobile ride that I would have to take with my principal, because these meetings are during the day during the week.

I agree that an official should not eject a player or coach for an offense for which an ejection is not warranted by rule. Remember that there are no "routine" ejections. An ejection is a very serious penalty. If the rules do not warrant an ejection, then do not eject, but if the rules do warrant ejection, then an official must eject. But we should not be thinking about other penalties that our StateHSAA invokes because a player or coach decides act in such a manner for which the rules require an ejection. If a coach's actions warrant an ejection under the rules of the sport, the official should and must take care of business. If the StateHSAA decides to impose further sanctions should be of no concern to the game official. As I stated before, if you fail to eject a coach when it is warranted because you do not want him to have to suffer a StateHSAA suspension, you are not doing your job.

I agree with you that we should always be performing preventative officiating with regard to players and coaches and unsportsmanlike conduct. I do not want to eject players or coaches anymore than the next official. (Writing a game report is a bigger pain in the tuchus than writing this post in my opinion.) But once that player or coach fails to heed an official's efforts to keep in him in the game and the official fails to take the appropriate actions per rule because he does not want to ruin his own career or does not want the player or coach to have to serve a suspension, that official has violated the cannons of ethics for officials. And I have stated earlier, that official only makes the job of the officials who follow him more difficult with this coach.

I would suggest that you take a step back and re-evaluate what you want to accomplish in your officiating career. Maybe you need to take a year off from officiating. But I know that right now I would not want to officiate with an official that won't take care of business if it is going to keep him from getting games later in his career.

MTD, Sr.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Nov 22nd, 2004 at 01:06 PM]

[Rich]

Originally posted by gordon30307

To paraphrase Bill Maher: You can be right and still be wrong.

So to paraphrase an even older saying, then we know what you are but are now just negotiating the price?

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gordon:

Here are the ejection penalties for the games under the jurisdiction of the OhioHSAA (player or coach):

1) First ejection: two game suspension at the level of the game in which the ejection occured. That means if the Varsity coach is sitting on the bench during a freshmen game (and there are times when we have freshmen/jr. varsity/varsity triple headers here in Ohio) and he gets ejected from the freshmen game, he is done for the rest of the evening and suspended from coaching at freshmen, jr. varsity and varsity until the freshmen team has played two games. This penalty is also the same for players, because OhioHSAA rules state that H.S. players are limited to 80 quarters of basketball during the basketball regular season.

2) Second ejection: suspended the remainder of the season. If the person ejected is a coach, the coach and his principal must have a personal meeting with the Commissioner of the OhioHSAA before he can return to coaching. And if I were a coach in a school that lived in the fartherest reaches of Ohio from Columbus, that is not one automobile ride that I would have to take with my principal, because these meetings are during the day during the week.

I agree that an official should not eject a player or coach for an offense for which an ejection is not warranted by rule. Remember that there are no "routine" ejections. An ejection is a very serious penalty. If the rules do not warrant an ejection, then do not eject, but if the rules do warrant ejection, then an official must eject. But we should not be thinking about other penalties that our StateHSAA invokes because a player or coach decides act in such a manner for which the rules require an ejection. If a coach's actions warrant an ejection under the rules of the sport, the official should and must take care of business. If the StateHSAA decides to impose further sanctions should be of no concern to the game official. As I stated before, if you fail to eject a coach when it is warranted because you do not want him to have to suffer a StateHSAA suspension, you are not doing your job.

I agree with you that we should always be performing preventative officiating with regard to players and coaches and unsportsmanlike conduct. I do not want to eject players or coaches anymore than the next official. (Writing a game report is a bigger pain in the tuchus than writing this post in my opinion.) But once that player or coach fails to heed an official's efforts to keep in him in the game and the official fails to take the appropriate actions per rule because he does not want to ruin his own career or does not want the player or coach to have to serve a suspension, that official has violated the cannons of ethics for officials. And I have stated earlier, that official only makes the job of the officials who follow him more difficult with this coach.

I would suggest that you take a step back and re-evaluate what you want to accomplish in your officiating career. Maybe you need to take a year off from officiating. But I know that right now I would not want to officiate with an official that won't take care of business if it is going to keep him from getting games later in his career.

MTD, Sr.

[Edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on Nov 22nd, 2004 at 01:06 PM]

Hey Gandpa Grumpy, Have a Happy Thanksgiving

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

So to paraphrase an even older saying, then we know what you are but are now just negotiating the price?

Rich:

That's cold, real cold.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Gordon;

Please do have a Happy Thanksgiving. But you give up too easily.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Rich:

That's cold, real cold.

MTD, Sr.

Well, sometimes that's what it takes. But if you think the comment crosses the line, go ahead and remove the post.