Available for your Disposal

[Rick Durkee]

Rule 4-4-7-d states that the ball is at the disposal of a player when it is, "Available to a player after a goal."

Relative to calling time out during the dead ball interval after a made basket, is there an accepted meaning for "available"? I know what the play looks like and how we usually apply the rule, but I am curious about what was actually intended.

Now I have to find one of those cool signature quotes for the bottom of my emails. I assume when I get one that I become a Senior Member. :-)

Rick

[bob jenkins]

Generally, when B has the ball OOB, or could have the ball OOB (if they choose not to pick it up for some reason).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BushRef
We discussed this at our meeting last night and someone seemed to think that after A has made the basket and as soon as B has grabbed the ball, it is too late for A to call a timeout, even BEFORE B has stepped out of bounds.

Thoughts?

Someone is right.

You can't grant a TO when the other team has the ball or it's at it's their disposal- even before they step OOB.

Casebook play 6.1.2SitB(a) has a good explanation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Someone is right.

You can't grant a TO when the other team has the ball or it's at it's their disposal- even before they step OOB.

Casebook play 6.1.2SitB(a) has a good explanation.

JR:

Your statement is partially correct and partially incorrect.

There have been other threads concerning when the ball becomes at the disposal of the thrower after a goal is scored. NFHS R5-S8-A3b and NCAA R5-S9-A4 and A5 are the governing references with regard to requesting a timeout.

I agree with you that after Team A scored and Team B does not make an effort to pick-up the ball to take it out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in the covering official can declare the ball at the disposal of Team B by starting a five second count; once the official starts his five second count if Team A requests a timeout, its request cannot be granted. Why? The ball becomes live when it is at the disposal of the team allowed to make the throw-in. If a player from Team B picks up the ball immediately after Team A scores and then immediately takes the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball does not become live until the Team B player is completely out-of-bounds; at that point the ball becomes live and the ball is at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in. That means the ball is dead until the ball is at the disposal of Team B and while the ball is dead any team can request a timeout and the timeout request should be granted.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

Your statement is partially correct and partially incorrect.

There have been other threads concerning when the ball becomes at the disposal of the thrower after a goal is scored. NFHS R5-S8-A3b and NCAA R5-S9-A4 and A5 are the governing references with regard to requesting a timeout.

I agree with you that after Team A scored and Team B does not make an effort to pick-up the ball to take it out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in the covering official can declare the ball at the disposal of Team B by starting a five second count; once the official starts his five second count if Team A requests a timeout, its request cannot be granted. Why? The ball becomes live when it is at the disposal of the team allowed to make the throw-in. If a player from Team B picks up the ball immediately after Team A scores and then immediately takes the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball does not become live until the Team B player is completely out-of-bounds; at that point the ball becomes live and the ball is at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in. That means the ball is dead until the ball is at the disposal of Team B and while the ball is dead any team can request a timeout and the timeout request should be granted.

MTD, Sr.

6.1.2 situation B disagrees with that interpretation. That case play clearly states that the ball may be deemed at the disposal whether the throwing team is inbounds or out. '

The comment after the case play even talks about a ball near the end line being availiable to a player, that the count can begin.

Further the case play for 5-8-3 disagrees with you too.
5.8.3 situation D.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 10th, 2004 at 11:37 PM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by blindzebra

6.1.2 situation B disagrees with that interpretation. That case play clearly states that the ball may be deemed at the disposal whether the throwing team is inbounds or out. '

The comment after the case play even talks about a ball near the end line being availiable to a player, that the count can begin.

Further the case play for 5-8-3 disagrees with you too.
5.8.3 situation D.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 10th, 2004 at 11:37 PM]

BZ:

From my origianl post I said:

"If a player from Team B picks up the ball immediately after Team A scores and then immediately takes the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball does not become live until the Team B player is completely out-of-bounds; at that point the ball becomes live and the ball is at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in."

In this situation, when would you start your five second count, when B1 first takes possession of the ball while still inbounds after Team A's score, or when B1 is completely out-of-bounds? Please explain your decision? Thank you in advance.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BZ:

From my origianl post I said:

"If a player from Team B picks up the ball immediately after Team A scores and then immediately takes the ball out-of-bounds to attempt a throw-in, the ball does not become live until the Team B player is completely out-of-bounds; at that point the ball becomes live and the ball is at the disposal of Team B for the throw-in."

In this situation, when would you start your five second count, when B1 first takes possession of the ball while still inbounds after Team A's score, or when B1 is completely out-of-bounds? Please explain your decision? Thank you in advance.

MTD, Sr.

The count begins when it is at the disposal, so yes BEFORE they are OOBs.

Both case plays I cited say as much. One goes as far as to say if the throwing team can pick up the ball but delays, the official may begin the count BEFORE they secure the ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by blindzebra

The count begins when it is at the disposal, so yes BEFORE they are OOBs.

Both case plays I cited say as much. One goes as far as to say if the throwing team can pick up the ball but delays, the official may begin the count BEFORE they secure the ball.

Your absolutely correct of B1 delays, but in my situation B1 does not delay, and therefore the ball is not at the disposal of Team B for the purposes of making a throw-in until B1 is completely out-of-bounds. In my situation you do not start your five second count until B1 is completely out-of-bounds, at the time the ball becomes live and is at the disposal of Team B, and the official can start a five second count. Therefore, until the ball becomes live Team A can request a timeout and Team A's request should be granted.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Your absolutely correct of B1 delays, but in my situation B1 does not delay, and therefore the ball is not at the disposal of Team B for the purposes of making a throw-in until B1 is completely out-of-bounds. In my situation you do not start your five second count until B1 is completely out-of-bounds, at the time the ball becomes live and is at the disposal of Team B, and the official can start a five second count. Therefore, until the ball becomes live Team A can request a timeout and Team A's request should be granted.

MTD, Sr.

That's NOT what the case book say, Mark.

It talks about when they secure the ball or if it is availiable for them to secure it, but there is not one mention of waiting until they are OOB.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by blindzebra

That's NOT what the case book say, Mark.

It talks about when they secure the ball or if it is availiable for them to secure it, but there is not one mention of waiting until they are OOB.

BZ:

Let me get this straight. A1 intercepts a pass in Team B's front court and goes the length of the court for a slam dunk. The ball, due to the force of A1's dunk bounces back toward the division line. B1 comes running down the court and is the first Team B player to get to the ball when it is near Team A's free throw line and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds for ensuing throw-in. The instant B1 takes possession at Team A's free throw line of the ball you are going to start start a five second count? Please tell you are not going to start a five second count at that point?

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

BZ:

Let me get this straight. A1 intercepts a pass in Team B's front court and goes the length of the court for a slam dunk. The ball, due to the force of A1's dunk bounces back toward the division line. B1 comes running down the court and is the first Team B player to get to the ball when it is near Team A's free throw line and immediately starts to take the ball out-of-bounds for ensuing throw-in. The instant B1 takes possession at Team A's free throw line of the ball you are going to start start a five second count? Please tell you are not going to start a five second count at that point?

MTD, Sr.

It is the official's judgement, by rule, as to when the ball is at the disposal.

Obviously in that extreme situation the ball is not at team B's disposal 70 feet from a throw in.

However, if B1 takes the ball right out of the net and starts toward the end line, yes I'm starting my count at that point, which is what the case play says.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by BushRef
We discussed this at our meeting last night and someone seemed to think that after A has made the basket and as soon as B has grabbed the ball, it is too late for A to call a timeout, even BEFORE B has stepped out of bounds.

Thoughts?

I disagree.

Team B has 5 seconds to release the throwin. That 5 seconds begins when it is at their disposal. If you're not counting, A can call timeout.

Disposal begins when B has the ball in their hands and are in a position to make a throw-in OR they should be in such a position (by the officials judgement) and are delaying and a count has been started.

If you are giving time for the offense to start the throwin (by not starting the count), you must also give that same time to the defense to use. If the timeout is denied, it can only be because the ball is live. The ball can only become live if the throw-in has begun. If that is true, a count must be underway.

The case plays cite say the official "may" deem the ball at the disposal of the throwing team before they're OOB. It doesn't say the ball IS at their disposal as soon as they pick it up.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
[/B]

The case plays cite say the official "may" deem the ball at the disposal of the throwing team before they're OOB. It doesn't say the ball IS at their disposal as soon as they pick it up.


[/B][/QUOTE]Lah me!

Rule 5-8-3-- "Time out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official grants a player's/head coach's oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when (a) the ball is in control or at the disposal of a player of his/her team (b) the ball is dead....

Rule 4-4-7(d)-- "A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is available to a player after a goal".

Rule 6-1-2(b)-- "The ball becomes live when on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower".

Casebook play 6.1.2SitB-COMMENT-- "In this situation, the covering official must give the new throw-in team a moment or two to recognize it is their ball for a throw-in and get a player in the area to pick up the ball. If the ball is near the end line, it is the throw-in team's responsibility to secure it and throw it in from anywhere out of bounds along the end line. The covering official shall start his/her throw-in count when it is determined the ball is available:.

Sooooo.....we got rules language stating that the ball is available, or at the disposal of the team throwing it in as soon as they have a player in the area of the ball. We also have rules language that states that the ball now becomes live at this time too. Not only live, but it's obviously live in Team B's possession. Not Team A's possession-- Team B's possession!

Could your or MTD Sr. now tell me how you can now award a TO to team A under the provisions of R5-8-3 when Team B has a live ball at it's disposal? Appropriate rules citations would be helpful.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 11th, 2004 at 07:27 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Could your or MTD Sr. now tell me how you can now award a TO to team A under the provisions of R5-8-3 when Team B has a live ball at it's disposal? Appropriate rules citations would be helpful.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 11th, 2004 at 07:27 AM]

If B1 has the ball "inbounds", how can they make a legal throw-in? If they can't make a legal throw-in, how can the ball be at their disposal?

(To avoid B "gaming the system" by not taking the ball OOB, we start the count when, in our judgment, they could have had the ball OOB, but choose not to.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

If B1 has the ball "inbounds", how can they make a legal throw-in? If they can't make a legal throw-in, how can the ball be at their disposal?

(To avoid B "gaming the system" by not taking the ball OOB, we start the count when, in our judgment, they could have had the ball OOB, but choose not to.)

The throw-in period starts in-bounds when the official determines that the ball is available-i.e. at the disposal of the thrower-in. To make a legal throw-in, they then just have to take it out-of -bounds and throw it in within their alloted 5 seconds from when the throw-in began(in-bounds). I think that I might be missing your point on this one.

To go back to the original dispute, would you grant the other team's request for a TO if the ball was available and at the disposal in-bounds of the team that was making the throw-in, Bob? If so, under what rule(s)? And what about 6.1.2SitB(a) where it says the TO can't be granted even though the ball is bouncing in-bounds if it's at the thrower's disposal?