Double Technicals

bainemc · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 02, 2001, 03:14pm

In game last night in Alvin Texas, 8th grade. My Pard blows his whistle and foul signal. He gives a Tech to A1 and says he is ejecting A1 & B1. I called him over to confer. I was at trail near mid court and had seen A1 push B1 into the wall, they were both moving on a fast break and the momentum alone would have carried them close to the padded wall(but A1 definitely helped) B1 facing the wall comes off with a elbow (misses) and says something to the effect of Quit Fouling Me.

I had seen the push by A1. Didn't see the elbow by B1, and then I saw A1 go after him again. ANYWAY, Pard was going to eject 2 players but only call T on one. I told him that we could not eject 2 players for fighting or unsportsmanlike conduct etc without giving both of them a technical. Then he said, OK we will just keep both in the game. I said, no way; I saw A1 with the deliberate push into the wall, You saw the thrown elbow. Both should be gone and both with the "T".

Comments or corrections for this 1st year Ref(my pards 3rd year)

Then I was not sure of the penalty. We shot Tech free throws with both teams then went to the possesion arrow.

Did I get it almost right?????

Thanks guys, this forum has been a great help.

Baine

Danvrapp · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 02, 2001, 03:19pm

I'm a rookie official myself, and I believe the only thing you did wrong was let each team shoot the technical foul shots. I believe a situation with offsetting technicals leads to no shots and using the AP arrow for the throw in. And you're right, for fighting each player would get a flagrant technical foul and be ejected.

Brian Watson · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 02, 2001, 03:32pm

No matter what type of foul you call (flagrant personal or flagrant technical) you/need to call offsetting fouls in this situation. B had to commit some type of foul to warrant an ejection.

Technically, I think you would have had a flagrant personal on A, and a T on B. Either way, since it was a double foul, you go to the arrow no matter what type of double it is.

You guys did the right thing in coming to a conclusion. The best thing to do is come together and determine what is going to happen before you go to the bench and report anything.

Mark Dexter · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 02, 2001, 09:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
No matter what type of foul you call (flagrant personal or flagrant technical) you/need to call offsetting fouls in this situation. B had to commit some type of foul to warrant an ejection.

Technically, I think you would have had a flagrant personal on A, and a T on B. Either way, since it was a double foul, you go to the arrow no matter what type of double it is.

You guys did the right thing in coming to a conclusion. The best thing to do is come together and determine what is going to happen before you go to the bench and report anything.

I agree with your call (flagrant personal-A, flagrant technical-B), but wouldn't this qualify as a false double foul?

To have a double personal, you need 2 personals. To have a double techincal, you need 2 T's. If you have one of each, at least one attribute of a double foul is missing. I'd say 2 shots for B, 2 shots for A, and A's ball @ halfcourt (go in the order the penalties occur).

No matter what the route, the most important thing is to get the two bonehead players out of the game.

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Feb 02, 2001, 11:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson
No matter what type of foul you call (flagrant personal or flagrant technical) you/need to call offsetting fouls in this situation. B had to commit some type of foul to warrant an ejection.

Technically, I think you would have had a flagrant personal on A, and a T on B. Either way, since it was a double foul, you go to the arrow no matter what type of double it is.

You guys did the right thing in coming to a conclusion. The best thing to do is come together and determine what is going to happen before you go to the bench and report anything.

Mark is correct. If you have a flagrant personal foul, and then a flagrant technical foul, you have a false double foul. Substitute for B1 shoots his two FTs, then Team A shoots the technical foul FTs, and then A gets the ball at the division line.

bainemc, that's probably how it should have been handled.

In NC, A1 would be disqualified. B1 would be ejected, if the elbow was considered fighting, and would be suspended for two games. We have to know if we have an ejection or a disqualification.

Brian Watson · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 03, 2001, 10:43am

I think I need to blow the dust off my FDF.

You're right, since the ball would be dead on the personal, the T would be a false and both administered in order.

I was thinking that since both were 2 shots and the ball penalties we would go to the arrow.

My bad.

Hawks Coach · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Feb 03, 2001, 10:51pm

From my reading of the initial post, it appears they did not get the fouls right and may not have got the penalties right. First we have potentially a flagrant foul on A1. Then we have the incident with B1 and A1 retaliating? It seems that we have personal (flagrant?inetntional?common?) on A1, then the fighting situation that involved both players. Seems to me that B should be shooting two for the initial foul, regardless of type, then you go to possession arrow on the double flagrant Ts. If you do not have the T on A1, then both teams would shoot and I guess you must have called a flagrant foul on A1.

The way the post read, we had two Ts and no common/intentional/flagrant foul on A1.