Coach Stupid strikes again!

[Rookie]

I had the jump ball situation last night, green tipped OOB. White got the ball, and green got the arrow. I thought and thought about this during dead balls. Green had first possesion, the tip, and therefor white should get the arrow and the ball. I discussed this with my partner and he stated that green never had control of the ball. I did not press the issue. At half time I went to look this up and I found a couple of things, but the question is does the tip considered control. I now we were wrong, but I was not about to debate a rule I did not know inside and out.

[Mark Padgett]

When there is no team control (such as during a jump ball), team control is established when player control is established. Player control is defined as a player "holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds". If a player on a jump just tips the ball, he is not holding or dribbling it. Therefore, no player control. Therefore, no team control.

You made the right call.

[Rookie]

So I was so wrong, I was right?

[Bradley Batt]

I tip is not considered control. If the player merely tipped the ball out of bounds, you did the correct thing. That is, if Green tips it out, White gets the ball for the throw-in and Green gets the arrow.

The only case where a team gets the arrow AND the ball on the jump is if the other team's jumper catches the ball before it has been touched by anyone else.

[Mark Padgett]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Originally posted by Bradley Batt
The only case where a team gets the arrow AND the ball on the jump is if the other team's jumper catches the ball before it has been touched by anyone else.

Or before it has hit the ground, a basket or a backboard. BTW - I finally figured out why they still have the "backboard" in this rule. I mean, let's get real - who can tip the ball from the center circle directly off a backboard (or a basket, for that matter?). I think it's a holdover from the days when we actually had jump balls during a game and some were administered in the free throw jump circles.

[thadrus]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Or before it has hit the ground, a basket or a backboard.

And there are some others too, are there not. Non-jumper into the circle early, double tip by the jumper, etc. I'm hoping that any jump ball violation is 'ball and arrow'.

[bob jenkins]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thadrus

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

And there are some others too, are there not. Non-jumper into the circle early, double tip by the jumper, etc. I'm hoping that any jump ball violation is 'ball and arrow'.

Hope all you want -- it's not true.

See, the "jumper catching the ball" is simultaneous control and violation. The arrow is set based on a team gaining control -- so the arrow is set to B's basket as soon as A catches the ball. It's also a violation, so B gets the ball. Two things happened; two rulings -- they both happen to favor B. It's just as if B2 caught the tip, then immediately travelled. Note that in this case, the arrow is set before the throw-in.

On all the other violations, team control is never established, so the arrow doesn't get set as a result of the jump ball action. It gets set as a result of the violation -- A violates, so B gets the ball. B getting the ball results in the arrow being set for A. Note that in this case the arrow isn't set until the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in inbounder.

[rpwall]

Originally posted by Martin Morgan


rpwall,

Since you went with the throw-in, instead of the coaches' requests for re-jump on the "violation/non-violation", what did you do with the arrow? Did they holler about that decision, too?

Martin

Initial arrow to Red ... I doubt they noticed/considered the arrow or I am sure we would have gotten some assistance on that rule, too!

[thadrus]

[i]
Hope all you want -- it's not true.

[/B]

Thanks. I can't recall ever having to deal with this personally, but I would have called it wrong (and maybe I did). Your explanation helps a lot. I did kinda thumb through the rule book and case book over lunch. Did I miss something or is the book kinda weak on this point. Will have dig a little deeper.

Thanks again

[Hawks Coach]

Did I miss something or is the book kinda weak on this point.

There are a lot of references that must all be considered together to understand this situation.

6-4-7 Neither jumper shall catch the jump ball.

In this case, Catch=violation and catch=control

6-3-1 The team obtaining control of the jump ball starts the alternating-possession procedure. The arrow is set toward the opponent's basket. Control may also be established by the results of a violation or foul, as in 4-3.

4-3 Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when:
ART. 1 . . . A player secures control of the ball, as after the jump ball.
ART. 3 . . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.

In the two other cases you cite, the violation occurs during or following the jump and before a player secured control, so 4-3-3 comes into play. In the scenario when the jumper catches the ball, player control occurs along with the violation. Establishment of player control gives the arrow to the opponents as per 4-3-1 (and, as is clear in the language of 4-3-3, negates that provision). The violation of 6-4-7 also gives ball to the opponents.

[Kelvin green]

Ths is in response to Bob's post up above.
He stated that ) Yes the player can break the plane -- but not legally. It's a warning the first time and a team T the second time any player on the team breaks the plane.

I must disagee. check out page 72 the only Team T's are the administrative. This T is charged to the player!

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Ths is in response to Bob's post up above.
He stated that ) Yes the player can break the plane -- but not legally. It's a warning the first time and a team T the second time any player on the team breaks the plane.

I must disagee. check out page 72 the only Team T's are the administrative. This T is charged to the player!

10-1(Team Technicals)-10 "Following the team warning for delay ... commit a violation of the throw-in boundary plane"

Page 72, under the admin (team) section "violation after team warning for delay"

Mereely reaching through the plane (after the warning) is a team T. Reaching through and touching or dislodging the ball is an individual T.

[Brian Watson]

The breaking the plane vs dislodging the ball is a tough one to handle. Any delay is a team T, this is what breaking the plane is-delay. When you dislodge the ball, the player gets the T becuause they caused the contact.

I had a play last year where A already had a warning for delay. A1 reached through and smacked the ball out of B1's hands while she was trying to inbound.

Feeling charitable I called it a team T, instead of a player T (it was middle school, I figured why punish her more). I told the coach she broke the plane, before she dislodged the ball. I guess it could have gone either way, I chose not to single her out.

[thadrus]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
The breaking the plane vs dislodging the ball is a tough one to handle. Any delay is a team T, this is what breaking the plane is-delay. When you dislodge the ball, the player gets the T becuause they caused the contact.

I had a play last year where A already had a warning for delay. A1 reached through and smacked the ball out of B1's hands while she was trying to inbound.

Feeling charitable I called it a team T, instead of a player T (it was middle school, I figured why punish her more). I told the coach she broke the plane, before she dislodged the ball. I guess it could have gone either way, I chose not to single her out.

I have to agree with Kelvin. According to Page 72, 'delay of game' and 'reaching thru the plane to dislodge the ball' are both listed as individual T's. Not team T's.

However, upon further review, I see what Bob is talking about on page 72. Evidently the 'delaying game' reference under "Players" is...........is what. How is this any different than 'violation after warning for delay. Can someone explain how a player would get T'd for delaying game but it not be covered under 'violation after warning for delay'? If it was sufficient to delay yet not warrant a warning first, wouldn't this be a flagrent situation and fall under 'unsportsmanlike'?

[Edited by thadrus on Feb 1st, 2001 at 08:51 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by thadrus

I have to agree with Kelvin. According to Page 72, 'delay of game' and 'reaching thru the plane to dislodge the ball' are both listed as individual T's. Not team T's.

However, upon further review, I see what Bob is talking about on page 72. Evidently the 'delaying game' reference under "Players" is...........is what. How is this any different than 'violation after warning for delay. Can someone explain how a player would get T'd for delaying game but it not be covered under 'violation after warning for delay'? If it was sufficient to delay yet not warrant a warning first, wouldn't this be a flagrent situation and fall under 'unsportsmanlike'?

[Edited by thadrus on Feb 1st, 2001 at 08:51 AM]

The "delay of game" mentioned in the "Players" section on page 72 refers to 10-3-7. The examples given do not include reaching through the plane on a throw-in.

And, no, it's not flagrant.