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Tue Jan 30, 2001, 11:53am
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Where do these guys come from? Is there a stupid coach camp somewhere? Here's what happened:
First quarter, A1 to inbound, defender reaches over and commits boundary violation. I report it to bench. Second quarter, same defender reaches over on an inbound and smacks ball before release. Player technical. Fourth quarter with less than a minute to go and A up by 2, same defender reaches over on an inbound and loudly hacks inbounder across arm before release. Intentional foul. As I go to report, the coach starts yelling. He knows better than to challenge me on a ruling, so his comments are somewhat vague, i.e.: "What's that about", "How can that happen", etc. I tell him it's a good thing for him that his player hit the arm and not the ball. This freezes him with his jaw open and his arms above his head. He kind of reminded me of a moose with antlers. "Huh? What do you mean?", he stammered. I reply, "because he hit the hand, they will get two shots and the ball back but your player stays in the game. If he would have hit the ball instead, it would have been his second technical. The penalty is the same, but he would have been ejected." A small smile starts to spread across his face at this time. "Oh yeah. You're right." Here's the kicker - he then turns to his player and screams "GOOD FOUL, LUCAS. GOOOOOOOOD FOUL!" It was like Richard Dawson on the old Family Feud yelling "GOOD ANSWER." He then pats his player on the back a few times and tells him to do it again!!! Do these guys take stupid pills or what? 
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Tue Jan 30, 2001, 12:29pm
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I had this happen earlier in the year. It was right in front of the bench. A had the ball over her head (think like a soccer player). B jumped and spiked the ball out of her hands, and it landed in the lap of coach B's ASSt.
According to him, and he is/was the ultimate authority of fed rules, that is not, has never, and will never be a T. Maybe they were twins. PS - wouldn't it suck to have to fill out paperwork for the state because you tossed a kid for breaking the plane 2x.
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Tue Jan 30, 2001, 03:47pm
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Help
Ok guys here is the still ever learning new ref. I know its in the book, but im reading the forum.
Please explain breaking the plane. 1. Can a defensive player break the plane as long as he doesn't touch player or ball while still in players hand? 2. Is it violation for defense to step on the OOB line, defending inbounds play? what is the penalty if violation 3. Cover the possibilities if you have time. Connected to this. Is it a inbounds violation when the offense releases the ball and hits OOB floor before inbounds or player inbounds? Thanks 1st Year Ref, learning!
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Tue Jan 30, 2001, 04:04pm
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Re: Help
Quote:
 It's a warning the first time and a team T the second time any player on the team breaks the plane.2) Wouldn't the defense have to break the plane to step on the line? 3) Break the plane, don't make contact with the ball or the player -- warning the first time, team T the second (and subsequent) Break the plane, make contact with the ball (before it's been released) -- Individual T. This also serves as the "breaking the plane warning" Break the plane, foul the inbounder -- Intentional foul. This also serves as the "breaking the plane warning."
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Tue Jan 30, 2001, 04:09pm
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breaking the plane
"1. Can a defensive player break the plane as long as he doesn't touch player or ball while still in players hand?"
No. Not until the ball has touched a player on the court. "2. Is it violation for defense to step on the OOB line, defending inbounds play? what is the penalty if violation " Yep. The OOB line is part of the plane. Same rule applies. Penalty is a warning for delay of game. Reported to the table (at which time the scorer should record time that it happened)and the coach. Second infraction for delay of game is a team technical (not assessed to the coach as either direct or indirect). BTW, not to state the obvious, but there are other instances besides a throw-in plane violation by the defense that will incure a delay of game warning/technical. Also, the offense is not allowed to break the plane either. "Connected to this. Is it an inbounds violation when the offense releases the ball and hits OOB floor before inbounds or player inbounds? " yes check the Rule 9 section in your funny book (Simplified and Illustrated NFHS rule book). It does a good job of explaining your questions.....with pictures even...bonus 
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Tue Jan 30, 2001, 05:52pm
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Re: breaking the plane
Quote:
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Tue Jan 30, 2001, 06:03pm
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quote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by thadrus "1. Can a defensive player break the plane as long as he doesn't touch player or ball while still in players hand?" No. Not until the ball has touched a player on the court. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where did you ever get this? sorry. Have no idea. Was probably in a bigger hurry than I should have been when replying. Probably just thinking faster than I could type.
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Tue Jan 30, 2001, 08:08pm
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Re: Help
Connected to this. Is it a inbounds violation when the offense releases the ball and hits OOB floor before inbounds or player inbounds? Thanks 1st Year Ref, learning! [/B][/QUOTE] bainemc: In response to this part of your question; yes, it would be a violation on the throw-in team. Rule 9-2-2: The thrower shall not fail to pass the ball directly into the court so it touches or is touched by another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. As thadrus indicated, there's an illustration of this exact scenario on page 58 of the NFHS picture book. (Simplified and Illustrated) Sven
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Wed Jan 31, 2001, 09:33am
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Another FIne Example
Opening tip last night ... Red jumper cleanly taps the ball OOB. We go to inbound the ball to White. Both coaches are off the bench hollering. Red coach wants us to rejump because "it is a jump ball violation". White coach wants us to rejump because "that's not a violation". Say what? Unbelievable stuff!
We inbounded the ball to White and off we went. No time for a rules clinic.
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Wed Jan 31, 2001, 09:54am
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Quote:
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
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Wed Jan 31, 2001, 10:15am
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OK now that we understand the book rule. Lets talk common sense rule. I won't give a warning unless it effects the play.
__________________
foulbuster
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Wed Jan 31, 2001, 10:31am
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"Unless it affects the play......."
"I won't give a warning unless it effects the play. "
A part of me has a real problem with this statement. Along with the "advantage/disadvantage" statements. I really do understand the reasoning and I do call by advantage or disadvantage (though I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it). I read very recently in one of the threads that if a point guard is bringing the ball down court, unguarded, and travels or double dribbles, they haven't gained an advantage, but we'll all call it. If the rule is broken, why don't we call it. It seems that every year our state association tells the officials to emphasize things like palming and intentional fouls and every year the veteren refs say "I'm not gonna call it unless they are using it to take advantage" so naturally the new refs have to call it the same way or they'll never move up. Meanwhile, we keep chipping away at the rule book. More specifically, your statement concerns me because....What if team A violated in the first quarter and you didn't report the warning. It is now tied with 2 sec in the game and team A violates again. Since you didn't call it earlier it is just a warning instead of a technical and we're quite possibly going to overtime instead of team B (again possibly) winning outright.
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Wed Jan 31, 2001, 11:52am
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Re:
Quote:
I do need to comment, however, on your example of the consequences of not calling the warning early and therefore having it effect a call in the last seconds. You are right on in stating this affects the game. The case book says that if the clock is running, you ignore a boundary violation like this one since it would give a trailing defensive team an unfair advantage, i.e.: committing a violation and being rewarded by having the clock stop. But if you had properly called the warning earlier, this second violation would be a T and their "advantage" would be nullified, even though the clock would stop. So you see, not calling the warning earlier could have an even bigger influence on the game than you first imagined. Not calling it is just another example of refs thinking that by not enforcing the rules and/or not calling the game consistently from start to finish (for instance, requiring "blood" for a foul late in the game) that they are letting the players decide the outcome when in fact, it's just the other way around.
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Wed Jan 31, 2001, 12:55pm
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Re: Another FIne Example
Quote:
rpwall, Since you went with the throw-in, instead of the coaches' requests for re-jump on the "violation/non-violation", what did you do with the arrow? Did they holler about that decision, too? Martin
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