Bench player intereferes

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Sigh. By using your experience we have shown conclusively that simply stating End of game situation like this, more than 3 FTAs are needed. A 70% free throw shooter is going hit 3 of 3 only 34% of the time. is inaccurate at best, regardless of the sample size.

What percentage of the time will a 70% free throw shooter make 3 of 3 FTAs in an end-game situation?

[mick]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

What percentage of the time will a 70% free throw shooter make 3 of 3 FTAs in an end-game situation?

...On Friday night

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

What percentage of the time will a 70% free throw shooter make 3 of 3 FTAs in an end-game situation?

I don't know. In real life you don't give enough information (there are too many variables) - how sure am I that the 70% is an accurate and valid measure that takes into account all possible variables - did the shooter just break the thumb on his shooting hand, what's his percentage under pressure vs no-pressure, is his girl friend in the stands, is he worried about failing history or that zit on his nose, what's his percentage when tired vs when rested, etc). Certainly your experience bears this out (3 out of 3 made every time you've seen it).

What you are missing is the following question:

"How certain am I that my answer is correct?"

If you're saying the answer is a certainty (probability = 1) - which I think you are - then you are clearly wrong.

If you're saying it's MOST LIKELY assuming ideal conditions over a huge number of trials that the answer is .7 X .7 X .7 then I agree (the Probability 101 answer). Just HOW likely is a question that can't be answered right now, pretty much all you can do is figure out how much UNCERTAINTY you're willing to live with before making a decision based on your calculation.

That's pretty close to the real life answer.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Mark, I said this earlier, but I think I got drowned out by the din of popcorn eating.

This situation is different than any 6 player example I've ever seen or hear about actually happening. Every time one of us has seen this, the coach had made a substitution and the player who was supposed to sit down did not; normally after a timeout or a multiple substitution. I've never a 6th player run onto the court during play.
Since this is a situation that none of us has seen (or maybe one or two of us), you cannot go on precedent to back up your doctrine that we cannot give both T's here.

I've had a 6th player run onto the court during play. It was due to being confused after a timeout but it was only after the ball was inbounds that she came onto the floor.

I also believe that you can't charge two T's. If you charge them for entering the court, the ball is dead and there can't be 6 players.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Recent situation where with 4 second left, A1 shoots a 3 pointer and B1 fouls him. A1 made the basket. While reporting the foul, B's Asst Coach went to howlin, stop sign given and he ran straight thru it, T was issued.

A1 steps to the line and makes his "And1".
Coach A says A1 will be his shooter for T.
A1 makes them both, and scores 6 points in final 4 seconds of half.
Head coach for B is livid with what just happened and rather than yelling at his Asst, he yells at me. We start second half with 2 freethrows for T.
Guess who Coach A selects as his shooter? Yes he him em both. 8 points in 4 ticks.

This kind of FT shooting is possible, but not common. Coach A told me after the game; "A1 is prob only about a 50% FT shooter, but I had to go with the hot hand".

I know this has nothing to do with 6 players on the court but relates to FT shooting.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

I've had a 6th player run onto the court during play. It was due to being confused after a timeout but it was only after the ball was inbounds that she came onto the floor.

I also believe that you can't charge two T's. If you charge them for entering the court, the ball is dead and there can't be 6 players.

Camron:

Thanks for coming to my defense. Because you agreed with me, your knowledge of the rules will forever be questioned by others.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Camron. You are right. If you see the player enter the court, you whistle it dead and immediately nail him. What IÂ’m saying is, if you donÂ’t see him come in, the rules allow for us to call two TÂ’s. Do we? Not 99.9% of the time.
The same goes for calling multiple fouls. The rules allow for it on a good number of the fouls we call in the paint, but we donÂ’t do it because the punishment wouldnÂ’t fit the crime. The only instance where I would consider calling two TÂ’s on a player running onto the court and proceeding to play is an end of game situation like this thread started with.
My point is not that this should be called regularly. My point is simply that the rules allow for it in this situation. I have yet to see anyone show me a rule that states otherwise.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
[/B]

I also believe that you can't charge two T's. If you charge them for entering the court, the ball is dead and there can't be 6 players. [/B][/QUOTE]Camron, could you explain that a l'il bit more? I'm not sure that I understand exactly what you are trying to say. I agree that you can't have 2 T's for the same act, but you sure can have separate T's for separate acts. Technical fouls are, by definition, dead-ball fouls, except for fighting.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
My point is not that this should be called regularly. My point is simply that the rules allow for it in this situation. I have yet to see anyone show me a rule that states otherwise.
[/B]

Agree- obviously.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Technical fouls are, by definition, dead-ball fouls, except for fighting.

They are? That's news to me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

They are? That's news to me.

Yup, wrong verbiage on my part.

[JRutledge]

I have had a 6th player just run onto the court. I can think of twice it happen in a game I worked. One was obvious and I stopped play immediately. The other time I did not notice it for several seconds and my partner blew the whistle.

I think you could easily have two T's on this play. Until someone can find me a specific rule or ruling that forbids it, I would call two Ts.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by BushRef
OK, how many of you this coming season are going to start calling 2 Ts when ya end up with 6 on the court? Please raise your hands!!

You cannot have two Ts for one action. You can for two separate actions.

Coming onto the court is one thing. Coming onto the court and grabbing an opponent is quite another.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have had on one or two occasions have had to charge a team with a technical foul for having six players on the court, and not once did I charge the sixth player with a technical foul entering the court illegally. Why? As some of my esteemed colleagues have already said, that
99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999
99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999
99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999
99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999%

of the time the officials will not ever see the sixth player enter the court. All the officials will see is six players on the court. If one does not know how the sixth player entered the court, the sixth player cannot be charged with a technical foul for illegally entering the court. Illegally entering the court is an infraction of the rules that has to be observed by an official at the moment that the infraction occurs. If one does not see an infraction of the rules then one cannot rule that an infraction has occured. In other words, if you cannot see it happen it did not happen. (I guess I have just answered an age old quatum physics thought problem: If a lightning bolt strikes a tree in the woods and there is no one to hear the thunder has thunder really sounded.) But I digress.

If an official sees a player illegally enter the playing court then the infraction by the player causes the ball to be dead immediately (for exceptions see Rule 4 for the continuous motion rule, and Rule 5 or 6, I cannot think off hand right now which rule deals with live ball and dead ball; I think it is 5, and my basektball briefcases with my rules books are still in the attic) therefore a team cannot be guilty of playing with more than five players at the sametime.

Now I would like to address the reality of the orignial problem in this thread. The play occured at the end of the game. Since Team A's bench is at the same end of the court as its basket (For those not familiar with FIBA rules, the home team has choice of which basket it will shoot at during the first half and a team defends its own basket and tries to score in its opponents basket.): How did B6 illegally enter the playing court?

If A1 shot the ball from Team A's backcourt, that it is possible for B6 to come directly onto the court from Team B's bench. If A1 shot the ball from Team A's frontcourt, then the most logical scenario for B6 t enter the court and be close enough to possibly make contact with the ball is for B6 to already be at the scorer's table waiting to enter the game as a substitute. But it really does not matter from where B6 illegally entered the playing court, I believe it is a situation where the game officials should have seen B6 enter the court almost immediately, thereby making the ball dead unless A1 was in the act of shooting, but the clock does stop because of B6's technical foul.

If A1 is not in the act of shooting, when B6 illegally enters the court, the ball becomes dead immediately, and if A1 then releases the ball, B6 cannot be charged with a technical foul for contacting the ball, because the ball is dead.

If A1 is in the act of shooting, when B6 illegally enters the court, the ball does not become dead, and B6 should be charged with two technical fouls: one for illegally entering the court and one for unsportsmanlike conduct for making contact with A1's field goal attempt. I also want to state that B6's contact with A1's field goal attempt does not make the ball dead; if the ball continues on and passes through Team A's basket from the top, A1's field goal attempt is good. But it should be remembered that any of the other five Team B players can legally block A1's field goal attempt after B6's technical foul for illegal entering the court, in fact, any one of the five other Team B players can legally block A1's field goal attempt after B6 has illegally contacted A1's field goal attempt. It should further be noted any of the five players from Team A and any of the five legal Team B players could commit basket interferenc or goaltending.

Boy am I tired. That's all for now folks.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I have had on one or two occasions have had to charge a team with a technical foul for having six players on the court, and not once did I charge the sixth player with a technical foul entering the court illegally. Why? As some of my esteemed colleagues have already said, that
99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999
99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999
99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999
99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999%

of the time the officials will not ever see the sixth player enter the court. All the officials will see is six players on the court. If one does not know how the sixth player entered the court, the sixth player cannot be charged with a technical foul for illegally entering the court. Illegally entering the court is an infraction of the rules that has to be observed by an official at the moment that the infraction occurs. If one does not see an infraction of the rules then one cannot rule that an infraction has occured. In other words, if you cannot see it happen it did not happen. (I guess I have just answered an age old quatum physics thought problem: If a lightning bolt strikes a tree in the woods and there is no one to hear the thunder has thunder really sounded.) But I digress.

You can call fouls when the ball is dead. So if it is seen, it does not rule out all action as legal from that point. Say what you want, but you have shown no rule that suggests otherwise.

Peace