Bench player intereferes

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Now I would like to address the reality of the orignial problem in this thread. The play occured at the end of the game. Since Team A's bench is at the same end of the court as its basket (For those not familiar with FIBA rules, the home team has choice of which basket it will shoot at during the first half and a team defends its own basket and tries to score in its opponents basket.): How did B6 illegally enter the playing court?

Now I would like to address the reality of the original post in this thread. It said that this was an NCAA question. For 6 pages, we've been discussing NFHS and NCAA rules references. Howinthehell did we get to freaking FIBA all of a sudden? and lol!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
There is no (consensus) ruling on this play.

A T only provides two throws, and that doesn't seem to be "fair".

Come up with some creative method to give A a chance to win the game.

And the winner is......

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I have had on one or two occasions have had to charge a team with a technical foul for having six players on the court, and not once did I charge the sixth player with a technical foul entering the court illegally. Why? As some of my esteemed colleagues have already said, that
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...

Boy am I tired. That's all for now folks.

MTD, Sr.

You must be tired, you made a mistake which I fixed for you:

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[Adam]

Mark,
I have called a Technical foul for a player entering the court illegal, even though neither my partner or I noticed it at the time. It was during a free throw and subs were coming in. The player in question merely ran in the direction of the bench before heading straight for the court. He never "reported" in; he never even made it to past his head coach. The table hit the buzzer and informed me that he had subbed in without reporting.

In hind sight, I'm wondering if this warranted a T. Must they report? Or must they be beckoned by the official?

Regardless, the table is capable of informing us of this infraction, are they not?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Mark,
I have called a Technical foul for a player entering the court illegal, even though neither my partner or I noticed it at the time. It was during a free throw and subs were coming in. The player in question merely ran in the direction of the bench before heading straight for the court. He never "reported" in; he never even made it to past his head coach. The table hit the buzzer and informed me that he had subbed in without reporting.

In hind sight, I'm wondering if this warranted a T. Must they report? Or must they be beckoned by the official?

Regardless, the table is capable of informing us of this infraction, are they not?

A sub has to report and also has to be beckoned onto the court. It's a T if they fail to do either(exception- you don't have to beckon subs between quarters), IF it's discovered before the ball becomes alive. NFHS rule 10-2.

Usual procedure though is to herd 'em back to the scorer's table and make 'em report properly, if you can- especially in the younger age groups. Saves a kinda cheap T.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 26th, 2004 at 10:07 PM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
There is no (consensus) ruling on this play.

A T only provides two throws, and that doesn't seem to be "fair".

Come up with some creative method to give A a chance to win the game.

It wouldn't be that hard to apply the George Carlin Theory here: Award a T for thinking about cheating, a T for setting up the situation to commit the cheating, a T for the actual cheating, and a T for enjoying the results of cheating. Dub each one Unsportsmanlike. That oughta do it!

[Mark Dexter]

MTD (and anyone else) - regarding the "no-see-um" policy, consider this play:

Team A has the ball in their frontcourt, and team B is playing man-to-man defense. All 10 players are in the frontcourt, and the trail is being a good trail and is behind the 'last' player.

B1 steals the ball, and before anyone can turn to run, throws a long pass to B6 who is standing right underneath B's basket for an easy layup.

What do you have?

(To play devil's advocate, if the refs take a second to realize what's going on, and the ball goes in before the whistle, do you still count the basket?)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
MTD (and anyone else) - regarding the "no-see-um" policy, consider this play:

Team A has the ball in their frontcourt, and team B is playing man-to-man defense. All 10 players are in the frontcourt, and the trail is being a good trail and is behind the 'last' player.

B1 steals the ball, and before anyone can turn to run, throws a long pass to B6 who is standing right underneath B's basket for an easy layup.

What do you have?

(To play devil's advocate, if the refs take a second to realize what's going on, and the ball goes in before the whistle, do you still count the basket?)

I will join you in playing devil's advocate.

If the officials do not realize what's going on, and the ball goes in before the whistle, I would have to say that B6's field goal attempt is counted and charge Team B with a technical foul for having too many players on the court.

The reason I am going with this ruling is that how do the officials know when B6 entered the court. It is entirely possible that prior to Team A getting control of the ball, Team B had six players on the court (and the officials did not realize it). Team A then gained control of the ball and moved the ball into its frontcourt. Team B may not have realized that it had six players on the court and B6 was too lazy to hustle down to play defense and was cherry picking instead or maybe B6 decided not to go to the other end of the court because he had something in his eye or was fixing his shoe laces, etc.

There is another reason I support this ruling besides the fact I am the one making it. I had a very similar situation in a girls' H.S. freshmen game a few years ago; the officiating crew was a two-man crew.

The Team H(ome) dressed only six players. In the third quarter Team V(isitor) had the all in its frontcourt and I was T(rail) table side. The ball had gone out-of-bounds off H1 along Team V's sideline opposite the table. H6 was waiting at the scorer's table to enter the game. I beckoned H6 into the game. H6 ran onto the court and H5 ran toward her bench. Team V inbounded the ball and the inbounds pass went into the paint. I had closed down toward the Team V's endline because of congestion in the paint and did not notice that H5 had comeback to play defense. I do not know whether H5 ever left the court. Team V's coach was screaming in my ear the Team H had six players on the court. Just about then V1 scored and I immediately stopped play. I looked over at Team H's bench and sure enough there were no subsitutes or I should say the was not a substitute on the bench. I quickly counted all six Team H players on the court. The result, V1's basket counted, Team H was charged with a technical foul for too many players on the court. I did not charge with H5 with a technical foul for illegal entry because I do not know whether she ever left the court.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Mark, since you don't know whether she left the court, you were right to charge the T. It's probable that she never left the court.

Dexter's situation is the rare case where I might consider two T's. Most times when there are 6 players, it's an honest mistake. This seems like a case where it is not, so I would consider the maximum penalty (a T for illegal entry and a T for playing with 6.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

If the officials do not realize what's going on, and the ball goes in before the whistle, I would have to say that B6's field goal attempt is counted and charge Team B with a technical foul for having too many players on the court.

That's consistent with rule 10-1-6, as well as casebook play 10.1.6. The penalty is assessed if the infraction is discovered while being violated.

Would be nice if we could figure out a way to wave off the basket too, but.......

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
MTD (and anyone else) - regarding the "no-see-um" policy, consider this play:

Team A has the ball in their frontcourt, and team B is playing man-to-man defense. All 10 players are in the frontcourt, and the trail is being a good trail and is behind the 'last' player.

B1 steals the ball, and before anyone can turn to run, throws a long pass to B6 who is standing right underneath B's basket for an easy layup.

What do you have?

(To play devil's advocate, if the refs take a second to realize what's going on, and the ball goes in before the whistle, do you still count the basket?)

Hey, Mark, you must have seem my college intramural team play. We won not one, but TWO games using this illegal play. Since most intramural refs aren't top-notch we got away with it.
Looking back, I don't feel good that we did it. Young immature college kids.