Fouled out, not really

[Nevadaref]

In light of the discussion about a recent NBA game in which an official checked on Shaq's foul total, I thought I should share this.

In the large HS (1000+ enrollment) championship game of this past weekends AAU tournament, I had an unusual situation. For the first time in my officiating career I had to undisqualify a player. It was a bit odd to explain to the coaches as both teams were from Utah and with both officials being from Nevada we had no previous relationship. They were quite pleasant about it, though.

The details of the situation:
1. close game the whole way, eventually decided by 2 in OT.
2. Blue #5 is a 6-6 250lb. center. He has two personal fouls and technical in the first half. I even peek in the book at halftime to see who is in foul trouble, so I know he has 3 fouls. Foul total at the half: Blue 12, White 3. Complaining about this is why Blue #5 received his T from my partner.
3. Blue #45, the other post player, has one personal foul in the first half and then picks up three more in about 1 minute during the 3rd quarter. His coach takes him out. I am quite aware that he has 4 fouls.
4. With 3:35 remaining in the 4th Q, Blue #5 makes an obvious foul 80 ft from the basket after White grabs a defensive rebound.
5. The scorer and timer are two JV players from the local HS who have done a great job all weekend. They now inform my partner and I that this foul is Blue #5's fifth.
6. Since my partner called the foul, I get to tell the coach. He and his player both insist that the kid has only 4 (three personal and one technical). The coach is very polite in his disagreement. I know that I have not called a foul on B5 this half, so I go and ask my partner if he remembers calling one besides the current foul. He says that he might have, but doesn't remember.
7. I return and tell the coach, "Coach, I need sub, please."
8. I am a bit perplexed, as I cannot recall his fourth foul, but we get the game going again, and the big guy sits until Blue #45 fouls with 1:33 remaining and the score 63-61 in favor of White.
9. I am 100% sure that this is his fifth. But no indication of this comes from the table, so, during the first free throw, I check with the table and they hold up 4 fingers. I look at my partner and mouth, "That's what happened." I had instantly remembered that both B5 and B45 were in the area when my partner whistled B45 for his fourth and knew that it had been incorrectly recorded as B5. My partner tends to report rather quickly and table likely just missed him first showing 4 fingers.
10. Before the second attempt, I hit the whistle and get together with my partner in the lane and tell him, "You know, we should fix this." He agrees and I head over the the table.
11. I motion both coaches over and inform them that I have definite knowledge that this was Blue #45's fifth foul. Blue coach says, "Come on, you can't foul him out, too!" At this point I let him know the good news that #5 was going to be allowed back in the game. He became much happier and agreed that I was right. I told him sorry about the two minutes that he had to sit, but this is the best I can do to make it right. Lastly, I directly told the coach of White, who had been present and listening to the entire explanation, "You know this is the right thing to do," to which he merely nodded.
12. White missed both FTs on #45's fifth foul, Blue came down got the ball to #5 and he scored to tie the game. Then both teams traded baskets and missed attempts in the final seconds to send us to OT at 65-65. I was glad because the impact of the two minutes the big guy had to sit out due to our "officiating" mistake was greatly mitigated by the additional four minutes of playing time.
13. Blue #5 played the final 5:33 without fouling and when White's desperation heave from 60 ft only hit the backboard as time expired they had won 69-67.
14. Total fouls for the game: White 14, Blue 23.

The sportsmanship and class of both teams and coaches was evident (I envy the Utah officials for this quality play and behavior that they get to see. And perhaps they deserve some credit for it, too.) as they (and even a few parents!) came over to tell us we did a good job after the game. I don't think that would have happened if we had not corrected the situation with Blue #5, no matter who won.
The bottom line is that:
Even though there were a few tough calls in the game and Blue's supporters voiced their displeasure in the first half with the foul count, what they remembered at the end of the game was that we corrected our mistake and had tried to be fair. We came out looking good after a tough game.

In closing, I'll just say that despite having heard many opinions to the contrary, I normally do try to be aware of how many fouls key players have, and in this case it helped us to "get it right." So while it is not really our job, it certainly can help the game to know.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jun 4th, 2004 at 05:10 AM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
In light of the discussion about a recent NBA game in which an official checked on Shaq's foul total, I thought I should share this.

In the large HS (1000+ enrollment) championship game of this past weekends AAU tournament, I had an unusual situation. For the first time in my officiating career I had to undisqualify a player. It was a bit odd to explain to the coaches as both teams were from Utah and with both officials being from Nevada we had no previous relationship. They were quite pleasant about it, though.

I ran out of juice right here. Hey DeNucci, could you condense and summarize this for us.

[cford]

Great story,

However......................no I'm just kidding , you handled the situation very well. I think this is a great example of why you should know the foul situations. If your an official that goes by the philosophy "I'm not going to know the foul count" then this would not have been fixed. The more information we know pertaining to the game, the more prepared we are to handle situations like this!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I ran out of juice right here. Hey DeNucci, could you condense and summarize this for us.

Lemme try.

B45 actually had 6 fouls(4 original + one charged wrongly to B5 when B5 was fouled out + the one with 1:33 remaining). B5 actually had 3 fouls. And according to line#5 above, somewhere along the line a numberless B player committed a foul that was wrongly charged to B5 as B5's FOURTH foul- making B45's actual fifth foul go into the book as B5's fifth foul instead of a 4th foul. And I can't see where the "definite knowledge" part at the end assigned this particular foul to another B player other than B5. Maybe Nevada can enlighten us as to which B player other than #5 or #45 committed the foul that was recorded wrongly in the book as B5's fourth. This foul had to go to somebody on the B team or the whole "definite knowledge" part goes out the window.

[Kelvin green]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
In light of the discussion about a recent NBA game in which an official checked on Shaq's foul total, I thought I should share this.

In the large HS (1000+ enrollment) championship game of this past weekends AAU tournament, I had an unusual situation. For the first time in my officiating career I had to undisqualify a player. It was a bit odd to explain to the coaches as both teams were from Utah and with both
[Edited by Nevadaref on Jun 3rd, 2004 at 07:04 AM]

What teams were they? Do you know the names? I am from Utah and am curious...

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I ran out of juice right here. Hey DeNucci, could you condense and summarize this for us.

You got farther than I did!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Lemme try.

B45 actually had 6 fouls(4 original + one charged wrongly to B5 when B5 was fouled out + the one with 1:33 remaining). [/B][/QUOTE]

It wasn't "charged" wrongly, it was recorded in the book wrongly. #45 should have fouled out rather than #5. That's also the explanation of the "definite knowledge." Boy, I don't get to correct you very often. Guess I'm not as obsequious and sycophantic as some folks think.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Lemme try.

B45 actually had 6 fouls(4 original + one charged wrongly to B5 when B5 was fouled out + the one with 1:33 remaining). B5 actually had 3 fouls. And according to line#5 above, somewhere along the line a numberless B player committed a foul that was wrongly charged to B5 as B5's FOURTH foul- making B45's actual fifth foul go into the book as B5's fifth foul instead of a 4th foul. And I can't see where the "definite knowledge" part at the end assigned this particular foul to another B player other than B5. Maybe Nevada can enlighten us as to which B player other than #5 or #45 committed the foul that was recorded wrongly in the book as B5's fourth. This foul had to go to somebody on the B team or the whole "definite knowledge" part goes out the window. [/B]

1st Half - B5 has 3, B45 has 1
3rd Quarter - 3 quick fouls given to B45
3:35 left in 4th B5 Commits Foul - Score sheet says it is his 5th - Have a seat
1:33 left in 4th B45 Commits Foul - Score sheet says it is his 4th - Uh... wait a minute that isn't right.

Ref makes correction allowing B5 to play and making B45 have a seat. Fouls are B5 - 4, B45 - 5

All in all... excellent knowledge and correction of the situation.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Lemme try.

B45 actually had 6 fouls(4 original + one charged wrongly to B5 when B5 was fouled out + the one with 1:33 remaining). B5 actually had 3 fouls. And according to line#5 above, somewhere along the line a numberless B player committed a foul that was wrongly charged to B5 as B5's FOURTH foul- making B45's actual fifth foul go into the book as B5's fifth foul instead of a 4th foul. And I can't see where the "definite knowledge" part at the end assigned this particular foul to another B player other than B5. Maybe Nevada can enlighten us as to which B player other than #5 or #45 committed the foul that was recorded wrongly in the book as B5's fourth. This foul had to go to somebody on the B team or the whole "definite knowledge" part goes out the window.

...please to insert left bearing assembly (A5) onto corresponding mating bracket housing (D8) same time while taking grasp left side wheel mount subassembly (A4) simultaneously turn screw (B3) clockwise until tight (models 3714, 3715 and 6792 only see insert for model 8912 except in Europe).

Note1 overtighten screw (B3) resulting plastic flange end cap (C37) to crack which will void your warranty.

Note2 undertighten screw (B3) resulting unsafe operatng condition for the rider, a conditon the manufacturer is not liable for.

Step 2...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cingram

1st Half - B5 has 3, B45 has 1
3rd Quarter - 3 quick fouls given to B45
3:35 left in 4th B5 Commits Foul - Score sheet says it is his 5th - Have a seat
[/B]

Yup. Now what B player actually committed the FOURTH foul that was charged to B5 in the score book before the 5th foul that was charged at 3:35??? That 4th foul HAS to be given to the proper B player if you're gonna use "definite knowlege". For instance, if you now take that 4th. foul in the book away from B5 and give it to B45, then that 4th foul charged to B5 now becomes B45's 5th foul, and the 5th foul charged to B5 at 3:35 left is actually B45's SIXTH foul if you change it. That also means that the the foul to B45 with 1:33 left would now be B45's SEVENTH foul!!!

There was an extra foul charged to B5- his 4th one in the book- that has NOT been properly charged to any other B player when the changes were made.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

[/B]

Note1 overtighten screw (B3) resulting plastic flange end cap (C37) to crack which will void your warranty.

Note2 undertighten screw (B3) resulting unsafe operatng condition for the rider, a conditon the manufacturer is not liable for.


[/B][/QUOTE]Step2: Screw you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Lemme try.

B45 actually had 6 fouls(4 original + one charged wrongly to B5 when B5 was fouled out + the one with 1:33 remaining).

It wasn't "charged" wrongly, it was recorded in the book wrongly. #45 should have fouled out rather than #5. That's also the explanation of the "definite knowledge." Boy, I don't get to correct you very often. Guess I'm not as obsequious and sycophantic as some folks think.
[/B][/QUOTE]B5 actually committed 3 fouls to this point according to Nevada. B5's disqualifying 5th foul with 3:35 left should have been charged to B45. Obviously, the FOURTH foul charged to B5 in the book was wrongfully charged somewhere along the line. From Nevada's description, can you tell me what B player actually should have been charged with B5's fourth foul instead of B5?

Iow, the scorer made TWO mistakes that had to be corrected: (1) charging B5 with a 4th foul somewhere along the line that B5 did not commit (2) wrongfully charging B5 with a foul that was actually committed by B45 with 3:35 to go, and thus disqualifying B5 with 5 fouls. Were BOTH mistakes corrected? Or just one?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 3rd, 2004 at 10:46 AM]

[footlocker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Boy, I don't get to correct you very often. Guess I'm not as obsequious and sycophantic as some folks think.

Ok, so my grasp of vocabulary isn't as extensive. But correct me if I am wrong here; isn't this a little redundant?

Sidebar: Can something be a little redundant?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Note1 overtighten screw (B3) resulting plastic flange end cap (C37) to crack which will void your warranty.

Note2 undertighten screw (B3) resulting unsafe operatng condition for the rider, a conditon the manufacturer is not liable for.


[/B]

Step2: Screw you. [/B][/QUOTE]

Awww..that wasn't nice



BTW, the AAU I work gives 6 fouls before a disqual.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup. Now what B player actually committed the FOURTH foul that was charged to B5 in the score book before the 5th foul that was charged at 3:35??? That 4th foul HAS to be given to the proper B player if you're gonna use "definite knowlege". For instance, if you now take that 4th. foul in the book away from B5 and give it to B45, then that 4th foul charged to B5 now becomes B45's 5th foul, and the 5th foul charged to B5 at 3:35 left is actually B45's SIXTH foul if you change it. That also means that the the foul to B45 with 1:33 left would now be B45's SEVENTH foul!!!

There was an extra foul charged to B5- his 4th one in the book- that has NOT been properly charged to any other B player when the changes were made. [/B]

1st Half - B5 has 3, B45 has 1
3rd Quarter - 3 quick fouls given to B45 At this point the original error occurs: Sheet reads B5 - 4, B45 - 3
3:35 left in 4th B5 Commits Foul - Score sheet says it is his 5th - Have a seat Sheet reads B5 - 5, B45 - 3
1:33 left in 4th B45 Commits Foul Table says it is his 4th Sheet reads B5 - 5, B45 - 4

At this point: B5 has one too many fouls and B45 is missing one foul.

Nevadaref shifted one foul from B5 to B45 - Giving B5 4 fouls (allowing him to play again), and giving B45 5 fouls giving him a seat.

There are no other mysterious fouls (on any other players) that creep into the equation.

After the correction the Score sheet reads
B5 - 4
B45 - 5