NBA vs. NCAA officials

[d-wil]

Thanks for responses to the Duke/UConn, Zags/Nevada, and conference-to concerence style of play posts I made recently....

A question: Are there, or what are the fundamental differences in officiating an NBA game as opposed to an NCAA game (outside of rule differences)?

There are other semi-formed questions on this subject in mind, and perhaps responses will solidify them...

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by d-wil
A question: Are there, or what are the fundamental differences in officiating an NBA game as opposed to an NCAA game (outside of rule differences)?

Not sure what you're asking. There are many fundamental differences in the rules, that really can't be ignored in this discussion, and in the officiating mechanics. The NBA game is is played by stronger, quicker, and faster men than the college game. It's also more of an entertainment-business. Both of those issues require that the rules be different and that it be officiated differently.

[d-wil]

Thanks for your reply b-ball ref... I surely understand the differences in athletic ability between the two.

Officiating mechanics? Now that's a term 99.44% of those outside of your profession are unaware of!!! Are you referring to floor position and rotation? An explanation of "mechanics" would be a great place to start... explaining how the entertainment side of the NBA affects the manner in which NBA officials call games would also surely be helpful.

I'm a fairly reilgious watcher of NBA TV's 30 minute segment with Ronnie Nunn... An announcer shows plays that may have been controversial to get Nunn's assessment of the officials' calls. They also have a rules interpretation segment within the show accompanied by video -w/ Nunn providing explanations... it's a great show to gain an introductory understanding of the NBA ref's percetions and thinking....

Now, this is where i get lost: a defensive player obviously reaches in while the offensive player begins to make a move toward the basket. The announcer says, "now that's a reach in."

Nunn responds: "We regard this as incidental contact. The offensive player was moving from point A to point B and the defensive player didn't impede him from reaching point C." The announcer give Nunn a quizzical look & moves on to the next topic. Meanwhile I'm watching & have to mute the television to absorb what was said, and then I say, "Wha-?!

So, if you could provide me with a set of basic rules differences, a rudimentary understanding of officiating mechanics, and how all of this is affected by the entertainment value, that would be a godsend....

Please excuse this reply length. However, understanding your job is integral to me avoiding the uniformed knee-jerk reactions to officials' calls so many of my sports media peers have...

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by d-wil
Now, this is where i get lost: a defensive player obviously reaches in while the offensive player begins to make a move toward the basket. The announcer says, "now that's a reach in."

Nunn responds: "We regard this as incidental contact. The offensive player was moving from point A to point B and the defensive player didn't impede him from reaching point C." The announcer give Nunn a quizzical look & moves on to the next topic. Meanwhile I'm watching & have to mute the television to absorb what was said, and then I say, "Wha-?!

First of all, there is no such thang as a "reach." You will not see any rulebook use that language. It is not illegal to "reach" for the ball at any moment. But if you reach for the ball and you grab a ball handlers arm and prevent them from shooting or dribbling the ball, then you can have a foul. But that is only if the contact is not considered "incidental" which Nunn seems to explain, but not very well it seems. The term "Reach" is a coaches, player's and fan's language. Officials that know any better do not use that language. Because it is not illegal.

Originally posted by d-wil
So, if you could provide me with a set of basic rules differences, a rudimentary understanding of officiating mechanics, and how all of this is affected by the entertainment value, that would be a godsend....

Basketball is not like Football, there are not a couple hundred differences between the college/HS and pro levels. The main difference are obvious. Three point line length and maybe the shot clock, but there are not many "fundamental differences" that affect the game. This is why LeBron James can make a jump from HS to pro and not have much trouble. It is a different game, but not because the rules are so different, the talent level makes things different.

Peace

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by d-wil
Thanks for your reply b-ball ref... I surely understand the differences in athletic ability between the two.

Officiating mechanics? Now that's a term 99.44% of those outside of your profession are unaware of!!! Are you referring to floor position and rotation? An explanation of "mechanics" would be a great place to start... explaining how the entertainment side of the NBA affects the manner in which NBA officials call games would also surely be helpful.

I'm a fairly reilgious watcher of NBA TV's 30 minute segment with Ronnie Nunn... An announcer shows plays that may have been controversial to get Nunn's assessment of the officials' calls. They also have a rules interpretation segment within the show accompanied by video -w/ Nunn providing explanations... it's a great show to gain an introductory understanding of the NBA ref's percetions and thinking....

Now, this is where i get lost: a defensive player obviously reaches in while the offensive player begins to make a move toward the basket. The announcer says, "now that's a reach in."

Nunn responds: "We regard this as incidental contact. The offensive player was moving from point A to point B and the defensive player didn't impede him from reaching point C." The announcer give Nunn a quizzical look & moves on to the next topic. Meanwhile I'm watching & have to mute the television to absorb what was said, and then I say, "Wha-?!

So, if you could provide me with a set of basic rules differences, a rudimentary understanding of officiating mechanics, and how all of this is affected by the entertainment value, that would be a godsend....

Please excuse this reply length. However, understanding your job is integral to me avoiding the uniformed knee-jerk reactions to officials' calls so many of my sports media peers have...

First, there is not a call for reaching in, that animal does not exist. Any contact that does not hinder normal offensive or defensive movement is incidental. Player moving to A, has contact at B, successfully reaches C means that the contact at point B did not hinder the offensive player, thus no foul.

[BktBallRef]

What you're asking would probably take three pages of posts to explain but I'll address a few points.

#1, you can compare the two links below and see the differences in signals.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/00422964.html

http://www.nfhs.org/staticcontent/pdfs/bbsignals03.pdf

The differences in floor position are less and less each year. Most of the technics used in three man officiating was developed by the NBA and trickled down to the NCAA and NFHS.

The rotations/switches are somewhat different but nearly as much as they use to be.

#2, Officiating Philosophy

Just because contact occurs, it doesn't mean there's a foul. In the situation that you described from the announcer and Ronnie Nunn, the myth is "reachin' in." There's no such thing as reachin' in. If a foul occurs, it's either illegal use of hands or holding. But it's not a foul just to reach for the ball. In the situation described, why penalize the offensive player, who has a clear path to the basket, just because the defender stuck his arm out? Unless the contact places the offensive player at a disadvantage, then a foul hasn't occurred.

That's what Ronnie was saying. Good officials apply the principle of advantage/disadvantage to such situations. If an advantage is gained or a player is placed at a disadavantage because of contact, then a foul has occurred. And that's true at all levels of play.

NBA officials are going to ignore the trivial stuff, like the extra step on a drive to the basket, or bump that Yao and Shaq exchange while banging in the post.

#3, the big difference in the game is the strength, quickness, and speed of the players. More contact is allowed. When you have 10 such players moving together in such a small area, the game is going to be physical.

#4, a few rule differences:

There is no closely guarded situation in the NBA. An offensive player who has his back to the basket and dribbling the defender down into the post has less than 5 seconds to make his move. This is designed to cut down on "isolation" plays and involve the team more.

The NBA has things like away-from-the-play fouls, elbow fouls, punching fouls, and loose ball fouls. The NCAA doesn't.

The NBA also has a defensive 3 seconds rule, which replaced the illegal defense rules from a few years ago. There are no such restrictions on the defense in the NCAA.

You can check out the rules for each at the links below.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_index.html

There are other officials here who have actaully officiated within the NBA rules. Hopefully, they'll pop in and tell us more.

[Brad]

Originally posted by d-wil
The announcer says, "now that's a reach in."

The best advice that I can give you is to listen to exactly what the announcer says and then know that the opposite of whatever was just said was true.

Announcers, in general, have no clue when it comes to the rules and say some of the most asinine things... They are to blame for the majority of fans that also do not have a clue about the actual rules of the game!

On the other hand, if Ronnie Nunn says it, you can pretty much take it to the bank!

[iamaref]

Just a lil something I picked up watching the playoffs last night... can't remember which game. And it is small.. but, kinda shows you how creative the best officials can be (NBA).

One of the players was arguing something. Apparently Bavetta had mentioned this exact thing in the pregame captains meeting. So he tells the player.. "We warned you guys about that in the pregame captains meeting (or somethign like that).. do you REMEMBER that ?"

Just thought it was creative to use something as simple as the captains meeting to relieve a situation. The player simply shook his head and walked away. There are so many small things that the best officials do.. that go unnoticed. That keep a good flow to the game and avoid confrontation. NBA officials you could argue... do it better than anyone out there.

[JRutledge]

iamaref,

To piggy back on that. It might have been the same conversation, I am not sure.

Bevatta was talking to Steve Francis of the Houston Rockets and not sure why they were talking but Bevetta said this to Steve. "You know I respect what you do and the kind of player you are? Give me that same respect?" All Francis could do was agree with him.

I thought it was so cool that he "broke it down" so that he could understand and get respect by using those words to relate to a player.

Peace

[w_sohl]

NBA Officials what NOT to call and who to not call it on.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally posted by w_sohl
NBA Officials what NOT to call and who to not call it on.

What are you trying to say... That NBA officials do in fact subscribe to the "Star Treatment" philosophy? If that is your point, I don't buy it.

I sat through a very insightful talk by Ed Rush last summer and he addressed the perception that the Star treatment exists. His points were too lengthy (and I could not state his thoughts as well as he did) to post here, but after hearing his side of the story, no one could talk me into subscribing to the Star Treatment.

If I misunderstood your post, my apologies in advance.

[d-wil]

Thanks all for the answers... bktballref - I downloaded all the info & am going to watch a game tonight with the NBA rulebook as a guide...

Last night Bavetta was talking to Oliver Miller (the captain's meeting conversation)... & yes the previous incident was with S. Francis...Bavetta appears to be one of the better communicators in The League.

Finally, yes I must admit that NBA officials are expected to be perfect the first time they step on an NBA court. However, in quite a few games this year I've heard announcers (usually ex-players) mention that there's been more turnover recently - young officials replacing retired officials.

They have explained that, like a rookie or young player in The League, it takes some time for a new official to get fully used to the players' skill level, pace of the game, etc. Then they must work around, and with, all the different personalities, from the chronically-complaining of a Vlade Divac, to the tempermental Rasheed Wallace, to the "Zen" outbursts of Phil Jackson...

The learning curve is steep, but hey, somebody's gotta keep the peace!!!

Thanks again for the replies...

[w_sohl]

I also spoke with Mr. Rush in July, and also with Ron Garretson and about seven other NBA officials that I could name. The star treatment does exist to some degree in the NBA, just not to the level that the general public likes to believe it exists. (It even exists some in college and high school)

However, what I ment by my post was that they are the best at determining Advantage/Disadvantage, thus knowing better than anyone when to blow the whistle and when not to. This is why it may seem like the game is a little dirtier than the college game. Players obviously are much stronger so they can play through quite a bit more contact. This is what I beleive seperates a NBA official from all of the other officials, because I sure know how hard it can be to bite my whistle sometimes.

Besides, as one NBA Official told me, "You just got to have IT, I don't know what IT is, but you need IT to work in the NBA."

[d-wil]

w_sohl...

...the "star treatment" exists in every sport... baseball players known for their "exceptional knowledge of the strike zone" get the benefit of the doubt at the plate from umps; great receivers often get away with a little extra push to "gain separation" from a defensive back, etc.......to me, at least, that stuff is no big deal...

Advantage/Disadvantage - As I absorb the posts, that topic is one to really remember and deserves much attention while viewing a game. Just thinking of a game from the perspective of advantage/disadvantage is an eye-opener... the booing crowd, the screaming coach, the grimacing player mean so much less when viewed from that perspective...

[footlocker]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra

Player moving to A, has contact at B, successfully reaches C means that the contact at point B did not hinder the offensive player, thus no foul.

If a player is moving to A and ends up at C instead then the contact must have hindered him from gettng to point A.