Pick and Roll Follow Up, Posting Up

[Adam]

Tigerball,
How many times do you actually see a player get knocked off balance in a game when being boxed out? I can't honestly say I've seen it, short of the "boxer" literally walking backwards. Ryan seems to be describing a box-out that isn't actually done.
And no, if your player gives up, then we have no advantage from the contact. IMO, of course.

[ryan330i]

The amount of jostling depends mostly on whether you have two post players working for position or you turn to block out the shooter (or another other more upright player).

You are arguing my descriptions against the rulebook, but I have already stated multiple times that my descriptions weren't good enough for us to communicate. Some read my descriptions and say "yea, I know what you are talking about but it isn't ususally called because of x" and some read it and say "that's a foul all the time I ref" etc.

I admit you are the first to conclude I am just pulling it out of my butt and have no experience with the dynamics of blocking people out and have solely made these comments from watching basketball. A novel conclusion, but not one I even care to respond to.

I can't stresss this enough. Fouls are not called on me for the way I block out, and fouls are not called for what appears to me to be similar blocking out methods during any of the high school, college, or pro games I watch. Ergo I'm not DOING it wrong, I'm SAYING it wrong.

You have to either accept that or not.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TigerBball
Ryan, maybe because we are from Indiana, we see thing different than the rest, but if refs called a box out the way this thread says they should, we would be shooting 100 FT's a game.

Players in Indiana aren't smart enough to adjust to the reffing? That's saying something...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ryan330i


I admit you are the first to conclude I am just pulling it out of my butt and have no experience with the dynamics of blocking people out and have solely made these comments from watching basketball.

No,no,no. I was the first to say that. You don't have any clue at all as to what the pertinent rules say, why those pertinent rules were enacted, and the philosophy used to actually call those rules. You've never read a rulebook in your life. You're basing your "opinion" on your many years of experience sitting on your a$$ in your LaZBoy watching games. Every single official that has responded to you so far in this thread has told you that "displacing/upsetting/moving" (your words, fanboy, and they couldn't be more exact) an opponent is a foul. You've also been told several times that, even though it is a foul, it may not be called all the time. The only person having a "comprehension" problem in this thread is YOU. You only seem to hear what you want to hear.

[TigerBball]

Snaqwells,

My guys do it all the time. They are taught to get their backside into the knee of the opponent, straighten his leg, and drive him backwards.

In a game, a good box out from one of my guys will gain 3 to 6 inches of space under the hoop. So we are displacing.

The only time my guys get called for a pushing foul is when they get their arms too far back, or use their forearm.

Speaking from the coaching community here, I don't know of a single coach that wants his player to box out by simply positiioning helmself between the opponent and the hoop with only minor contact or none at all. I would love to play against that team, our off. reb would be our main play.

[TigerBball]

PS

We probably only execute 6-8 good box outs a game.

[ryan330i]

This and following quotes originally posted by Jurassic Referee

No,no,no. I was the first to say that.

I reread every post and you didn’t say it first. You said in many ways that I know nothing about the rules, however that is not the same as implying I don’t play basketball or know how to block someone out.

You don't have any clue at all as to what the pertinent rules say, why those pertinent rules were enacted, and the philosophy used to actually call those rules.

True. Any statements I have made in the verbiage of “That’s not a foul” aren’t referring to rulebook, but to how games are called, which you and others acknowledge is not in perfect alignment.

You've never read a rulebook in your life.

False. I read the official rules of Bocce ball just last summer. Despite never having read an official basketball rulebook, I am quite clear what the rules of the game are, enough to play a game with enjoyment.

You're basing your "opinion" on your many years of experience sitting on your a$$ in your LaZBoy watching games.

False. I have played basketball most of my life and enjoy it still (at 30). I was never allowed to play football, and didn’t enjoy baseball. I played on school teams up to J-V, and then transferred to a much larger high school. In college I played on my fraternity’s team in Intramurals. I have also played in various church leagues, and Gus Macker style tournaments. Currently I play twice weekly with friends and with a group at work (no refs obviously)

I dislike your rude characterizations. It diminishes your credibility and integrity. I thought referees were better than normal at leaving personal stuff aside in disputes? I guess not. Well then, your mom is fat, if not dead, and you are old.

Every single official that has responded to you so far in this thread has told you that "displacing/upsetting/moving" (your words, fanboy, and they couldn't be more exact) an opponent is a foul.

To which I have repeatedly replied “I’ll submit to multiple ruling that what I am describing must be a foul, but that means I am not describing it properly”

You've also been told several times that, even though it is a foul, it may not be called all the time.

Hmm… Do I even care what the rulebook says about “it”, if “it” is not called in accordance with the rulebook? No.

Never mind the fact that I have not agreed as to the definition of what “it” is.

The only person having a "comprehension" problem in this thread is YOU. You only seem to hear what you want to hear.

I comprehend fine. Let me distill my perspective down to a simple little story. Now the referee in this story does not represent one particular person, but really just my experience:

Me: To Thing-a-ma-jig properly, you do this.
Ref: That is a foul.
Me: When I thing-a-ma-jig, I don’t get called, nor do I see it called.
Ref: That is a foul.
Me: OK, then I must be describing what happens wrongly because it isn’t called.
Ref: You described it wrong, and it is a foul.
Me: Wait, what I described…improperly, or what I’m trying to describe is a foul?
Ref: Yes.
Ref: And you described it improperly because you don’t understand basketball rules.
Ref: And you are a lazy a$$ and have never touched a basketball.
Me: Well, whatever. I know how to block out and it’s never called a foul, and there is contact. I’m losing something in the translation. And you are old.
Ref: It’s not called all the time.
Me: !?
Ref: You don’t comprehend.



I guess not.

[Edited by ryan330i on Apr 16th, 2004 at 08:51 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

Just remember - there's a huge difference between a description of an action on here or on the sidelines and what we actually see.

Show us a video, then we'll be able to easily discuss whether it is or isn't a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ryan330i

Despite never having read an official basketball rulebook, I am quite clear what the rules of the game are, enough to play a game with enjoyment.

[/B]

Pretty much says it all. Another driveway warrior.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ryan330i

False. I read the official rules of Bocce ball just last summer. Despite never having read an official basketball rulebook, I am quite clear what the rules of the game are, enough to play a game with enjoyment.

Knowing the rules well enough to enjoy playing the game is one thing. Getting paid to officiate the game is quite another - there's no way for you to know this but some of the folks participating in this tiresome discussion got further than officiating small school JV HS ball. Way further. Where I come from we have a word for an uninformed person who stubbornly refuses to take advice from an expert.

Jerk.

[ryan330i]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
Just remember - there's a huge difference between a description of an action on here or on the sidelines and what we actually see.

Show us a video, then we'll be able to easily discuss whether it is or isn't a foul.

Yes, a picture is worth a thousand words in this case. I'll agree to that.

[ryan330i]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Knowing the rules well enough to enjoy playing the game is one thing. Getting paid to officiate the game is quite another - there's no way for you to know this but some of the folks participating in this tiresome discussion got further than officiating small school JV HS ball. Way further.

I have browsed enough threads to recognize that there are officials here that referee up to Div I college. I haven't seen any references to pro ball, but I assume that is entirely possible.

I have not and would not pretend to offer advice on the rules of basketball, and only in comparison to referees on this board, do lack knowledge in the rules of basketball. That makes me uninformed on a rules question, but basketball is more than just rules. There is no rule for proper jump shot technique, and no rule describes how to best block someone out.

Another post I found interesting was how a player declined to answer a question of "do you understand?" to the referee and that thread was a subjective one, in which no rule in the book could answer.

Where I come from we have a word for an uninformed person who stubbornly refuses to take advice from an expert.
Jerk. [/B]

The advice I was given was that the dynamics of what I was describing would be a foul. I accepted that advice wholly with the simple disclaimer that I wasn't accurately explaining what I though proper block out technique was, and if I could, we wouldn't be disagreeing, because obviously proper block out technique doesn't result in fouls, in my experience.

Beyond that, things basically descended into name calling.

To that, I'm not entirely sure you are implying or expressing I am a jerk, but if so, more power to you. If not, I took it that way wrongly.

[ryan330i]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Pretty much says it all. Another driveway warrior. [/B]

Does it boost your ego to categorize everyone who has a different perspective into convenient categories like "driveway warriors" or "fanboys"?

It actually hurts my feelings. I love the game of basketball and consider myself moderately knowledgeable in its basic rules and more than proficient at playing it.

I don't even have any idea what a fanboy is in this context..I certainly don't look up to you or referees in any way, nor did I come here to criticize referees about my favorite team's latest loss.

It was a new and interesting perspective on the game of basketball. Unfortunately, my experience here with referees turned out much like the stereotypes for referees: Very sensitive to their turf, stubborn, confident, and perhaps worst of all, some tended to make things personal.

This is your sandbox, being a basketball officiating forum, and while I will continue to lurk (because it’s fascinating material), consider this, nearly my first thread, to be the last thread to post in.*

*I will, however, continue to defend myself, if you continue to hurl barbs at me --although I probably won't respect myself in the morning for it.

[PGCougar]

I'll try to answer a few points from a coaches perspective - been doing it for 18 years.

I believe what all the officials here are trying to say is that displacement is a foul. In a box-out, by definition, there is lots of incidental and intentional contact taking place while jockeying for position on the board. And there is probably lots of incidental displacement and sometimes subtle displacement taking place at the same time. Most times you won't get called for the foul, especially if it isn't obvious just how much space or advantage is gained during the physical fight for position.

Any official worth their salt, and the overwhelming majority who post here are, will look for "advantage/disadvantage" and "call the obvious."

Let's agree on an exaggerated example - on a rebound attempt, Shaq boxes-out his opponent, and then proceeds to drive him up the paint 10 or more feet to the free throw line. You gonna tell me this is OK? Of course not. The displacement is obvious and and he's gained an enormous advantage, pushing his opponent out of the probable rebounding area. FOUL.

Do most coaches teach their players to sit on the opponents knee and force them straight up or even just a teeny bit back on the box-out? Sure. Does it get called? Most of the time, no. But sometimes, when it's obvious, you'll get a whistle. As a coach I can accept it just like I can accept a 3-second call because I'm pushing my kids to perform at the very limit - sometimes we go over that boundary line. Fact is, in basketball, far less gets called than could have been when compared with definitions in the rule book. This is a good thing.

Judgement and discretion are just as important to the game as is a thorough understanding of the rules. Read more threads about game presence versus rules knowledge for officiating effectively. Read more threads about advantage/disadvantage. While your at it read the rules book - NFHS NCAA & NBA, and the officials manuals and case books too - you might appreciate how much more you can learn about the game than some of your playing participation and observation have given you so far. Hang around and learn some more about this great game.

[Dan_ref]

A loooong time ago when my younger son was 2 or 3 or so he has getting cranky about some silly thing so I told him to cool his jets. Man did that set him off! He immediately started crying, stamping his feet and screamed "I DON"T WANNA COOL MY JETS!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!"

And no, I didn't T him up for USC, I just hugged him until he calmed down. Miraculously he's yet to hold up a gas station or become an ax murderer. As far as I know.

Thanks for jarring that memory loose for me!