Been on vacation, read through the whole pick and roll thread and still unclear. This is what I think is being said. If my guy sets the screen, contact is made, and then rolls keeping contact without displacing the defender who has given up on the play, it is OK. If the defender is trying to spin around the pick and my guy rolls into his path after contact, no OK.

But now this brings on another thought. When does the pick stop being a pick and start being a post up. You see guys posting up and displacing the defender all the time. Is this action legal.

Finally, in my next game, do you think it would be wise for me to say, "hey ref, that's not a foul, he was not doing a pick and roll, that was a pick and post up"

No.

No.

After reading that thread this past week, I had one of the situations occur. Man is posting up, ball is passed from wing to corner. Man defending post tries to get out to stop the shot, post man moves to keep him sealed. Illegal screen call. For the other situations mentioned. I try to look at this way: 1) if post player is "shaping up" for position but displacing the defender, it's a foul. 2) on pick and roll plays, when the offenseive play rolls he is beating the defender to that spot and hence is entitled to it. 3) if defender is already working around the screen and the roll prevents him from getting out to his man, illegal screen. As everyone says ref the defense and let what is happening to him help you determine the call.

No it is not. Contact by an offensive player that displaces a defender that has established position is a foul, pure & simple.

Unfortunately, rough play in the post continues to be a problem. It's something that I try to be proactive about early in the game. At the first sign that post play is starting to get physical, I will usually give a firm "watch the contact" warning. My second warning is more directed "white23, blue 44, knock it off!". Well coached players will usually get the message quickly and adjust their play accordingly. Those that don't, will get a whistle and a foul, or in some cases a double foul if the excessive contact was mutually caused.



As to making a comment of the nature you described to the officials, I would strongly discourage it. Your chance of drawing an immediate technical foul is probably 50/50, depending on your attitude when you made the comment. Only the designated team captains can approach the officials, and then only to politely ask for an explanation or clarification.

For the record, the comment to the ref thing was a joke.

Some folks would say rough play continues to be a problem simply because officials hesitate to call fouls.

Why 3 warnings?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Some folks would say rough play continues to be a problem simply because officials hesitate to call fouls. Why 3 warnings?

And I agree - guess I should have been clearer. Illegal contact draws an immediate whistle...no warning.

What I was referring to is the typical pattern of borderline "incidental contact" that is the usual precursor to the post play actually escalating to the point of illegal contact. I'm sure most officials here have seen it & can relate.

IMHO, it's one of our responsibilities as officials to recognize it early, if possible, then try to stop the escalation when we do. I've found that a verbal warning or two BEFORE they cross the line helps by letting the players know they're getting close and giving them a chance to adjust before they do. If they heed it, great - everybody benefits. If not, then we penalize immediately when they actually cross the line.

Say what? :confused:

It's not about displacement. If the screener continues to move into the defender's path, BLOCKING him, it's a foul.

Yeah but...if the defender has "given up on the play", do they really have a path to be blocked from??? I think (if I am reading what TigerBball means) the coach has it correct - I set the screen, roll to the basket and keep contact with the defender with my butt, but the defender knows he's beaten and isn't trying to get around, we've got nothing...

Sorry but I guess I don't understand the copncept of "given up on the play." Why does he give up on the play just because there was a screen? Perhaps a better description would clarify.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TimTaylor

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Some folks would say rough play continues to be a problem simply because officials hesitate to call fouls. Why 3 warnings? And I agree - guess I should have been clearer. Illegal contact draws an immediate whistle...no warning. What I was referring to is the typical pattern of borderline "incidental contact" that is the usual precursor to the post play actually escalating to the point of illegal contact. I'm sure most officials here have seen it & can relate. IMHO, it's one of our responsibilities as officials to recognize it early, if possible, then try to stop the escalation when we do. I've found that a verbal warning or two BEFORE they cross the line helps by letting the players know they're getting close and giving them a chance to adjust before they do. If they heed it, great - everybody benefits. If not, then we penalize immediately when they actually cross the line.

Yeah, I'll do this too, although the trend these days in my area is to warn with your whistle right off the bat.

Dan -- Does all this sound familiar!?

Here is what usually happens.

A sets a good legal pick on B. Contact is made by B running into A, but usually without much force, they do not knock my guy down. So B hits the screen, before B even has a chance to make a move around the pick, A will reverse pivot. During the reverse pivot, A will lose contact with B, but then by the end of the reverse pivot, A will regain contact with B with A's backside. Now we are in a block out mode, or post up mode.

The D has switched, so B is now trying to gurad A. B now is trying to get around A in order to establish, position between A and the hoop. However A will move at this point, much like a block out, to keep B on his backside. Then when the pass is thrown. The passer aims for a spot about 5 feet infront of A leading him to the hoop. As the pass is in the air, A will release from the box-out and go receive the pass, hopefully leaving B in the dust.

It seems like all the answers have focused on the pick and not enough on how to roll legally. I still don't feel like I have a good answer. Maybe I am just a thickheaded coach, but my Mom always told me I was smart.

Nope, you are in a foul mode instead of a block out mode. Specifically a foul mode by A. A can't roll INTO the defensive player. B is always entitled to his/her established position on the floor. A can get as close to B on the roll as he/she wants to, as long as A does <b>not</b> cause any contact with B! If the official judged that the contact by A on the roll gave A an advantage on the play, then A is gonna get the foul.

Think of it as the same principle as someone blocking out on a rebound. You can get in the way, but you can't back the opposing player out or displace them from their spot on the floor.