Pick and Roll Follow Up, Posting Up

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, you are in a foul mode instead of a block out mode. Specifically a foul mode by A. A can't roll INTO the defensive player. B is always entitled to his/her established position on the floor. A can get as close to B on the roll as he/she wants to, as long as A does not cause any contact with B! If the official judged that the contact by A on the roll gave A an advantage on the play, then A is gonna get the foul.

Think of it as the same principle as someone blocking out on a rebound. You can get in the way, but you can't back the opposing player out or displace them from their spot on the floor.

JR, I'm not sure I'm seeing a foul as I read this play. As I see it the screen is done, A1 & B1 just happen to be standing near each other. A1 has the right to position himself to gain an advantage, even if there's incidental contact. Doesn't he?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Dan -- Does all this sound familiar!?

Yep, and for sure what Tony reads into this is way different from what Rocky reads into it. My response to JR sums up how I happen to visualize this play.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


Yep, and for sure what Tony reads into this is way different from what Rocky reads into it. My response to JR sums up how I happen to visualize this play. [/B]

I think I'm visualizing it the same way you are, Dan... unless the "roller" bangs the defender awfully hard and drives them across the key - or pins them with an arm or something stupid like that, I've got a good, legal play here...

[TigerBball]

Thank you, that clears it up from a rules stand point for me, but leads me to another question.

I have been coaching basketball for 12 years, watching for 30. I can't remember anyone ever being called for a foul for moving a guy backwards on a box out, assuming they are only using their back side, not their arms and elbows. Nor have I ever seen a post up foul called on a player who is not using his arms, but instead geting his butt into the D's legs for leverage and then backing them up.

In addition, I have never seen someone called for pinning someone on a pick and roll.

So, is this one of those things that is illegal, but in general not enforced?

[Rickref]

I have called plenty of fouls on box outs and post ups. Have not called any on a screen and roll, you can see from this thread that there are varying opinions on that play. The concept of displacement is relatively new and is now used as the criteria for calling fouls on box outs and post ups. Also the points of emphasis have focused on cleaning up post play for the last few years so its probably getting a lot more attention.

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by TigerBball
Thank you, that clears it up from a rules stand point for me, but leads me to another question.

I have been coaching basketball for 12 years, watching for 30. I can't remember anyone ever being called for a foul for moving a guy backwards on a box out, assuming they are only using their back side, not their arms and elbows. Nor have I ever seen a post up foul called on a player who is not using his arms, but instead geting his butt into the D's legs for leverage and then backing them up.

In addition, I have never seen someone called for pinning someone on a pick and roll.

So, is this one of those things that is illegal, but in general not enforced?

Never? NEVER?? Come on now...usually the "arm" basketball (using arms to push and hold) is easier to catch, but I believe all competent officials are going to call fouls on box-outs and post-ups when the player is using hips/butt to shove people around...

[TigerBball]

Never, didn't stutter, never seen it for only using your backside. Now if arms or elbows came too far back, yes, but not for being lower and better positioned than your opponent and moving him away from the hoop.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TigerBball
Never, didn't stutter, never seen it for only using your backside. Now if arms or elbows came too far back, yes, but not for being lower and better positioned than your opponent and moving him away from the hoop.

I'll invite you to my next boys' varsity game, you'll NEVER say this again!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by TigerBball
Never, didn't stutter, never seen it for only using your backside. Now if arms or elbows came too far back, yes, but not for being lower and better positioned than your opponent and moving him away from the hoop.

Then you've seen a lot of games where a foul was missed.

A push is a push, whether it's with the hands or the butt.

[TigerBball]

Well, around here, it just is not a call that is made.

In fact, many official encourage strong box outs. Many of them have told the other coach, because, no kidding here, I really don't yell at the refs, that they are not going to call a push on my guy (or as the other coach said "over the back") when their guy is not going to box him out hard.

[ryan330i]

If you are boxing out properly, you are in contact with the opponent when you drop into a lower stance with your back-end sticking out.

There is zero possibility that the opponent will be able to move forward into you, and as such, there is also almost zero possibility that they will not be slightly displaced backwards.

It's called putting them on their heels, and when you are on your heels, the only recovery is to step backwards a little bit.

You can see where I'm going with this... To me, a foul would be when a box out rams or causes the opponent to be greatly displaced. If they are back on their heels and take a step back to regain balance, their center has shifted, and you could say they have been displaced, but that's no foul to me.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ryan330i

There is zero possibility that the opponent will be able to move forward into you, and as such, there is also almost zero possibility that they will not be slightly displaced backwards.

It's called putting them on their heels, and when you are on your heels, the only recovery is to step backwards a little bit.

You can see where I'm going with this... To me, a foul would be when a box out rams or causes the opponent to be greatly displaced. If they are back on their heels and take a step back to regain balance, their center has shifted, and you could say they have been displaced, but that's no foul to me.

That's a foul to me though. And I got the whistle! Whether it actually gets called or not is simply up to the official's judgement as to whether you gained an advantage when you put the other player back on their heels. The "degree of contact" is not a factor at all in the call. A slight touch on the elbow of the shooting arm can make a shot miss completely, and will get called a foul- while a fair amount of body contact by a defender may not affect the shot at all, and may be ignored. Iow, you're taking your chances with the officials if you back an opponent out while you're boxing out. Just putting that opponent back on their heels so that they can not immediately go up is certainly gaining you an advantage, as far as I'm concerned. No different than putting an arm over an opponent's shoulder so that they can't jump. Don't b*itch if you get called for it.

[ryan330i]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[/B]That's a foul to me though.[/B]

We must be loosing something in the descriptions. I doubt there is a difference in what we think is a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ryan330i

We must be loosing something in the descriptions. I doubt there is a difference in what we think is a foul.

[/B]

Big difference. You're saying that a little butt bump that puts an opponent back on his heels isn't a foul. I'm saying that it is, but it may or may not be called, dependant on whether the official thought that it gave the bumper an advantage.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee You're saying that a little butt bump that puts an opponent back on his heels isn't a foul. I'm saying that it is, but it may or may not be called, dependant on whether the official thought that it gave the bumper an advantage.

So it's a foul, but it might not give an unfair advantage? Hmmmmmm. . .