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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 01:46am
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Just wanted to continue the discusion on a previous post about the difference JV and 9th grade games. Some of you said that in your area it takes 3to4 years before you get your first JV assignment, whereas I did varsity my 2nd year. Where I live it's pretty common for an official to start getting varsity games by the end of their 2nd year.

Granted, that is probably rushing things a bit, but waiting 3yrs for a JV game also seems extreme. Seems to me that you could be hamstringing some good officials by holding them back.

I guess my question is, for you people who live those areas, whats the rationale for waiting so long and do you agree?
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Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 03:20am
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Lightbulb I am not in those areas but....

I bet that is why we have many problems with many not sticking around. Those areas are not allowing the cream to rise to the top, they are making arbitrary rules and limits on what some can do. But that is my opinion.
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Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 10:41am
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Normally, our younger guys work JV and middles school ball. I may be several years before they move up to varsity. But the cream usually rises to the top. As far as holding people back, some new officials grasp rules and mechanics very quickly. But the experience isn't there. That only comes with time.

I've seen some of the guys working JV ball who think they should be working varsity when they probably should still be working middle school. What do I see? I see officials who...

...do not understand that a player must control the ball in order to travel.
...do not understand the difference in a fumble and a dribble.
...do not police shirt tails and shorts.
...have sloppy mechanics.
...call 3 seconds a half dozen times a game.
...do not call palming and carrying the ball.

Those are just a few things that come to mind. These are items that we talk about in clinics constantly, yet it doesn't seem to sink in. We continue to work with these but some just don't grasp an understanding of when to blow and when not to blow.

Many who quit after a couple of years don't have what it takes to become a quality official. I'm sure there are situations where injustices occur. The cream should rise to the top. Our association is not in a position to lose good officials. But there are a lot of guys who have been around several years who just aren't improving. Do they desire to work middle school games the rest of their life?
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Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 12:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoeD1
Granted, that is probably rushing things a bit, but waiting 3yrs for a JV game also seems extreme. Seems to me that you could be hamstringing some good officials by holding them back.

I guess my question is, for you people who live those areas, whats the rationale for waiting so long and do you agree?
I am in my second year. I know who was in first, second and third year last year, and I worked with many of them. I've also worked with quite a few "Varsity" officials -- I've worked a lot!! What it looks like to me is that the reason it takes so long for people to move up around here is that there is a LOT of competition for the higher levels. Once a person gets to that level, they stay for a while, and the number of folks who work Varsity games is quite large. So there is no rush to move people up.

On the other hand, people who work hard and learn fast can move up if they have any of the following assets: being female, having political connections, or getting really good really fast.

There is one woman (me!) in our second year class who will probably be doing some JV before the end of the year. I will probably get a few varsity games next year, and a full varsity schedule the year after. This is not because I am great but because I am good enough and female. There is a guy in our class who just seems to have the natural knack and has quite a bit of JV this year and will probably do varsity nest year. He is really very good, and can compete with the best veterans. Probably no one else will be assigned JV from our class until next year or the year after.

I don't have a problem with the early end of this arrangement. I do have a problem with the way people stay at the varsity level regardless how many skills have "slipped". I've worked with and observed a number of veterans who don't know the rules, or can't keep up with the ball, or have very sloppy mechanics, or other problems that would keep someone in the beginning from rising to that level. (Not you, Mark!)

Frankly, I wouldn't want to do a varsity game, even now. I"m just not ready, and can't imagine feeling ready until I've done another 100 games or so. Those of you who have done varsity in your second or third year, how does it feel?
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Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 02:51pm
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Rainmaker, you better get ready. I am finding that if anyone moves up too quickly it is woman. There is such a demand to have woman calling girls games that they will often have second year female officials calling those games. I was extremely jelous until I learned that rule.
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Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 03:39pm
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Me doing varsity games in my 2nd year was more a product of a lack of quality officials in my area than anything else. Here, the entry level is JV. In 2-3 years, people are usually considered "ready" for varsity. One reason I think there is a lack of officials here is the *HORRIBLE* pay. People, one, just don't take the time to improve themselves, or two, just leave officiating completely.

All the "good" referees move into JUCO and higher pretty quickly. What I'm trying to get across is here, the better officials move out of HS and into college quicker than in other parts of the country.

As for doing a varsity game my 2nd year, in the offseason I went to camp and REALLY made an effort to improve myself. I can't help my lack of experience, but I can make sure I know the rules.

One of our contracts won the boys state title. I called a regular season game between them and their eventual finals opponent. I was pretty nervous before the game! By the end of the game, the home team was down by 3 with about 6 seconds remaining. They inbounded the ball and pushed it up the court quickly. (I was the trail official) Their best shooter put up a shot that appeared to be a 3 pointer as the clock expired. He got the shot off in time, but from my angle, I knew that his toe was on the line. At that moment, time seemed to stand still and I was praying that it didn't go in. I knew what the consequences could be! Fortunately, he missed the shot! But, they went on to beat that same team for the state title.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 04:03pm
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Post This is a state and regional thang.

Every state, every region is different. It depends on the way officials get games and who makes those decisions. In most of the state of Illinois games are given out by ADs and each AD as their own criteria for hiring officials. In the Chicago areas and larger areas like Peoria, Springfield, assignors usually do the work of getting official. Even the assignors look for different things.

I know of one assignor that has a website and according to him, you must start out at the freshman level in his conferences and slowly move up until you get evaluations that allow you to move up to the JV games, then the non-conference games and then the varsity. This process alone could take 4 years to get varsity games in his conference. Now, it does not appear that he makes any distiction in state ranking or previous years of experience.

Now I know of other assignors that if you are good, they will put you wherever you are availible to them, and that could mean varsity games.

So my suggestion, ask a lot of questions of officials, officials association, ADs and anyone that might have direct knowledge of who officiates games in your state and/or region. Do not just ask one person or one official ask several. Better yet ask those that either make the decisions or the officials that are at the level you want to be at. Sometimes asking the wrong people can take you in the wrong direction so ask the people that are at the level or making the decisions at the level you want to be at. If that is varsity ask varsity officials and varsity assignnors or ADs.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 10:14pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Roden
Rainmaker, you better get ready. I am finding that if anyone moves up too quickly it is woman.
Tim -- I'm dancin' as fast as I can! And I have a good mentor who helps a lot. But I did make a few small mistakes in my last evaluation, so that I wouldn't get any varsity this year. I hope after a summer of AAU and camp, I'll feel ready to tackle anything...


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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 10:55pm
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Red face Moving ahead

The only final evaluator is the" GAME". My definition of the game is the Players, The Coaches ,The Fans and your Fellow Officials. If you try a higher level and the "Game' accepts you then you belong there. If you get evaluated on a one time basis by some so-called Elite official who says you are now ready to go to the next level and after a few games its obvious that the "Game" does not accept you at that level then you shouldn't be there. The "Game' will be very critical at first but if you can or should hang in there and you survive the initial few games then you normally have arrived. I have evaluated officials for years and have found that one or two looks is never enough. The "Game", which sees you night after night, is the only accurate evaluator. If you find that you are having trouble night after night at one level then chances are you have been evaluated by the "Game' at that level and should move yourself down for more seasoning before the "Game " moves you down. Pretty Philosophical EH ??? Think about it!
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 11:02pm
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Question Question for Joe D1

The measure of yourself as an official is what would be your call had the ball gone in and why were you so concerned???
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sat Dec 23, 2000, 11:46pm
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Of course, I would have called that shot a 2 pointer if it had gone in. Any official with any credibility whatsoever would have done the same.

There was really no concern - I was just joking. But you do have to admit, it would have been an interesting walk (or shall we say run) to the locker room.
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Old Sun Dec 24, 2000, 12:35pm
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Thumbs up JoeD1 on the 2 Pt buzzer beater

Good for you, I wouldn't have expected anything less-Remember ,when you are in that situation again give a very STRONG low 2 point indicator to everyone in the place that you saw the foot touching the line and then sell the 2 points when it goes in!!! Be proud of your call and don't run off the floor -that will only give the impression that you might have been unsure-Be strong!!
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Old Sun Dec 24, 2000, 01:53pm
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Re: JoeD1 on the 2 Pt buzzer beater

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Devana
Be proud of your call and don't run off the floor -that will only give the impression that you might have been unsure-Be strong!!
I disagree with you, Peter. Running off the floor has nothing to do with whether you're proud of the call or not. It's simply a good preventative officiating practice. When the final horn sounds, get your butt off that floor and into the locker room. There's no reason to wait around. Nothing good can happen on that floor after the game is over with. If you look for trouble, you'll find it.
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Old Sun Dec 24, 2000, 08:54pm
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Wink Running off The Floor

Thats really too bad- Having reffed FIBA rules primarily over the past 25 years we could never do that as the game was not over until the scorebook was signed. Never found the need to run away and never ran into any trouble. Oh well,I quess life is easier up here.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 24, 2000, 10:07pm
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Cool It can depend.

A lot of this depends on the type of game management you have, the type of game you do, and the score of that game. For the most part you do not want to wait around. But if you have a blowout and things are relatively calm, you might not need to run off the court. A brisk walk might be in order, but no need to run. But if you have the biggest rivals that played each other and one team went out to humiliate the other, you might not want to stick around. But you have to read the situation and decide for yourself. But getting off quickly should be your main goal, do not stick around to shake hands and give autographys, that is for sure.
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