pee wee rules adjustments

[just another ref]

As has been brought up in the other now famous thread, when
very young kids start out playing most leagues have variations on regular high school rules. I am kinda the rules committee of 1 for our local league (9-10 & 11-12 divisions) and am always looking for a way to improve things. The rules we use now are NFHS with the following exceptions.

No timeouts.
No full court pressure except in the last 2 minutes of the game.
Each player must play at least one and a half quarters.
Each player must sit out at least one half of one quarter.
No free throws except in the last 30 seconds of a game with a spread of 6 points or less, and any time for a flagrant, intentional, or technical foul.
When not shooting free throws, if a player is fouled in the act of shooting his team takes the ball out of bounds even if the shot is good.
Games are very short, set up on 30 minute time slots. 6 minute quarters with a running clock, which stops only in the last 10 seconds of each quarter, and the last 2 minutes of the game.

The no zone defense rule was formerly used, but was eventually scrapped. I personally was strongly if favor of getting rid of this rule, because I feel it turns the games into one on one contests, though I know this rule is very common at this level. I would welcome discussion of this point and any others on this subject.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by just another ref
As has been brought up in the other now famous thread, when
very young kids start out playing most leagues have variations on regular high school rules. I am kinda the rules committee of 1 for our local league (9-10 & 11-12 divisions) and am always looking for a way to improve things. The rules we use now are NFHS with the following exceptions.

No timeouts.
No full court pressure except in the last 2 minutes of the game.
Each player must play at least one and a half quarters.
Each player must sit out at least one half of one quarter.
No free throws except in the last 30 seconds of a game with a spread of 6 points or less, and any time for a flagrant, intentional, or technical foul.
When not shooting free throws, if a player is fouled in the act of shooting his team takes the ball out of bounds even if the shot is good.
Games are very short, set up on 30 minute time slots. 6 minute quarters with a running clock, which stops only in the last 10 seconds of each quarter, and the last 2 minutes of the game.

The no zone defense rule was formerly used, but was eventually scrapped. I personally was strongly if favor of getting rid of this rule, because I feel it turns the games into one on one contests, though I know this rule is very common at this level. I would welcome discussion of this point and any others on this subject.

Questions:

1. Why no timeouts?

2. Why no free throws?

3. If you are not shooting other free throws why shoot the ones tied to extreme behavior(T's,intentional,flagrant)? I'd think you'd want to make sure those fouls were punished with 2 points,that were automatic.

Comments:

I never liked the no press UNTIL rules.Either press or don't,what I've seen is games go in the toilet at the end.

[Snake~eyes]

AHHHH! Too many rules. Have timeouts, just not as many. Shoot foul shots, have the full court press in the 4th quarter except if up by a certain amount of points.

I as a referee get confused as I go from grade to grade for which rule is which and have to look at them before the game. Keep the rules more simplified IMO.

[ref18]

These are the variations for one of the youth leagues i ref. I feel that they work well for the level of play.

1. Equal playing time. Game is divided into 8, 4 minute shifts, the kid who plays the most, can't play more than 1 shift more than the kid who played the least.

2. No press except the last 2 minutes in each half.

3. Coaches get 4, 45 second time outs.

4. All field goals are worth 2 pts.

5. Swearing at any time for any reason = immediate disqualification/ejection

6. Referees can eject parents

7. You can play any defense you want.

8. No jump ball, alternating possession is determined by coin toss.

I think that this is it. When i go home, i'll have a look in the rulebook to see if there are any more variations. Otherwise its a pretty good league. The only problem is that the refs aren't affiliated with the local board. The refs are just high school students that are trying to do their volunteer hours. So the officiating isn't always the best quality.

[rainmaker]

Just got home from doing three games in one rec league, and then two more in a different rec league. Man, talk about confusing....

I like a no-zone rule from a player's point of view, but it's so difficult for the refs to adjust to! I almost wonder if it wouldn't be worth it for the league to hire an additional official who would stand under the basket and just watch for the one-on-one. I know it would be expensive and take some more adjusting but it might be worth thinking about.

When my daughter played, she was in one spring league that used a no-free-throw format, but it was an automatic two points for every foul that would have been any kind of shooting, and ball to the team that fouled, just as though the shots had been taken. Automatic three for the T's and intentionals. I liked it because it really taught the girls to play clean. Also, in spring league where the skills are a little rusty, it gave higher scores, and made it a more encouraging, up-building situation. I still think it would be a great way to run a running clock game.

For most kids with less experience, I like the no back court defense rule. It cuts down a little on the score disparity when teams are widely different in skill.

I like ref18's idea about refs tossing parents. I could have used it today!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I like ref18's idea about refs tossing parents. I could have used it today!

Now, now, Juulie. Here's a little lesson in stress management that you might find useful. I often use this after dealing with difficult parents:

- Take a deep breath, relax, and slowly and thoughtfully picture this in your mind:

" Picture yourself near a stream. Birds are softly chirping in the crisp, cool mountain air. Nothing can bother you here. No one knows this secret place but you. You are in total seclusion from that place called 'The World'. The soothing sound of a gentle waterfall fills the air with a cascade of serenity. The water is crystal clear. In it, you can easily make out the face of the a$$hole parent whose head you are holding under the water".

Works for me.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by just another ref
As has been brought up in the other now famous thread, when
very young kids start out playing most leagues have variations on regular high school rules. I am kinda the rules committee of 1 for our local league (9-10 & 11-12 divisions) and am always looking for a way to improve things. The rules we use now are NFHS with the following exceptions.

No timeouts.
No full court pressure except in the last 2 minutes of the game.
Each player must play at least one and a half quarters.
Each player must sit out at least one half of one quarter.
No free throws except in the last 30 seconds of a game with a spread of 6 points or less, and any time for a flagrant, intentional, or technical foul.
When not shooting free throws, if a player is fouled in the act of shooting his team takes the ball out of bounds even if the shot is good.
Games are very short, set up on 30 minute time slots. 6 minute quarters with a running clock, which stops only in the last 10 seconds of each quarter, and the last 2 minutes of the game.

The no zone defense rule was formerly used, but was eventually scrapped. I personally was strongly if favor of getting rid of this rule, because I feel it turns the games into one on one contests, though I know this rule is very common at this level. I would welcome discussion of this point and any others on this subject.

A local association uses modified rules. Visit http://www.kwyba.com/info_rules.htm and http://www.kwyba.com/info_divrules.htm. There are age ranges from 7 - 18.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
" Picture yourself near a stream. Birds are softly chirping in the crisp, cool mountain air. Nothing can bother you here. No one knows this secret place but you. You are in total seclusion from that place called 'The World'. The soothing sound of a gentle waterfall fills the air with a cascade of serenity. The water is crystal clear. In it, you can easily make out the face of the a$$hole parent whose head you are holding under the water".

Works for me.

JR, isn't this the nature CD that you bought?

[Bobby]

If you're playing with a no zone rule, also liberalise the penalty slightly for a zone defense by using an NBA-style illegal defense (no zone in the restricted area when player is not guarding anyone) technical foul -- one free throw and the ball, and it cannot be used for an ejection.

Let the ejections be for serious unsportsmanlike conduct -- not for simple procedural mistakes which are not unsportsmanlike, such as illegal defense or delay of game.

[ref18]

Our association officiates games that incorporate the no-zone rule, and we do not enforce this illegal defense rule. It is up to the site convenor to enforce. We only work with the fed rules, any major variations like the no-zone is dealt with by the league and not us.

[just another ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by blindzebra

Questions:

1. Why no timeouts?

2. Why no free throws?

It is all about saving time. After roughly a jillion of these games, we have still not weighed all the angles, be we have decided that timeouts and free throws at this level cost more in time consumption than they add to the game.

3. If you are not shooting other free throws why shoot the ones tied to extreme behavior(T's,intentional,flagrant)? I'd think you'd want to make sure those fouls were punished with 2 points,that were automatic.

The key word is extreme, as you say, and we want to emphasize that this behavior will not be tolerated. This has been debated, be we have decided against putting automatic points on the board for any reason.

Comments:

I never liked the no press UNTIL rules.Either press or don't,what I've seen is games go in the toilet at the end.

This is also debatable, but we have found that too often this results in either the ball staying on one end for too long at at time, or the game deteriorates into a contest of length-of-the-court passes and layups.

[ref18]

Another rec league i do has the following variations:

1. 2 20 minute halves, running time except last 2 minutes of game
2. Shooting fouls, you get 1 shot to make 1, 2, or 3 points. (depending on foul)


Other than that its normal high school rules. The only problem with this league is that its about a 30 minute drive to the site, and its not worth it because than your whole morning is practically gone when you could've done 3 or 4 games in the same time frame.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee

A local association uses modified rules. Visit http://www.kwyba.com/info_rules.htm and http://www.kwyba.com/info_divrules.htm. There are age ranges from 7 - 18.

from the above website:

MINOR ATOM/ATOM (age 7-9) Convenor: Vlad Hrubik 747-5505
1. Defense will be man-to-man and half court. No double-teaming unless offense dribbles into it.
2. No stealing on the dribble.
3. There are no foul shots. Normal fouls shall be in-bounded by fouled team. When bonus is reached, fouled team will receive 1 point and ball. If fouled on a shot team receives 2 points if missed, 3 points if good, defense takes ball.
4. Officials will call the following: double dribble; 5-second inbound violation; travelling;over and back (if gym size permits); 10-second violation;5-seconds closely guarded (only if no passing)
5. Team allowed one 30-second time-out per half (clock keeps running).

We have no stealing on the dribble, but we do have a 5 second closely guarded violation? (only if no passing...what does this mean??) As to the man-to-man requirement which I believe goes all the way up to the 13 year olds, and also includes no double teaming unless offense dribbles into it? Did the person who wrote these rules ever try to get on the court and enforce them? I would like to hear an explanation of how you keep one outstanding player from totally dominating a game if he must always be guarded one on one. Also, in spite of everyone's best efforts, I sometimes find it difficult to tell what kind of defense a team is playing. I would think it would be tough to call a technical on 7 year olds for illegal defense.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by just another ref

It is all about saving time. After roughly a jillion of these games, we have still not weighed all the angles, be we have decided that timeouts and free throws at this level cost more in time consumption than they add to the game.

You are correct that in a running clock game shooting free throws eats up a great deal of playing time, especially with young kids because they don't know exactly where to line up.
However, if you only give the team that is fouled in the act of shooting the ball OOB, a smart coach will figure out that every time the opponents have an easy shot, his team should simply hack the shooter.
A way to fix this problem is to simply award a point as well as the ball OOB, or award two points and give the ball to the other team along the end line. I officiate a high school summer league that does this. It really speeds up the game, gets the kids more actual basketball plays, and discourages fouling.
I also agree with automatic 2 for Ts, flagrants, intentionals, etc.
Rec league/summer league is not the time to practice free throws.

[TigerBball]

As a coach, I love the no zone rule at this age. 9 and 10 year olds do not shoot weel enough from outside to consistently defeat a zone. Also, you don't teach the kids how to play D. It tends to be a way to win without regard for teaching the kids anything.

However, I do think you should be allowed to play helpside. So, our elementary program has adopted an exception to the zone rule. You may double team the ball anytime it is in the lane. Otherwise, you must stay reasonably close to your man.