pee wee rules adjustments

[just another ref]

Originally posted by TigerBball
As a coach, I love the no zone rule at this age. 9 and 10 year olds do not shoot weel enough from outside to consistently defeat a zone. Also, you don't teach the kids how to play D. It tends to be a way to win without regard for teaching the kids anything.

However, I do think you should be allowed to play helpside. So, our elementary program has adopted an exception to the zone rule. You may double team the ball anytime it is in the lane. Otherwise, you must stay reasonably close to your man.

I agree that 9-10 year olds do not shoot well from outside, but I disagree that this is a reason to outlaw zone. Some at this age (and older) do not have an attention span long enough to guard one player for the whole game, some of which are not involved at all in the offense.

I don't understand what you mean when you say that you don't teach kids to play defense. Whether man or zone, there is plenty to teach on the defensive side, one main thing being move your feet.

I also strongly agree with your exception to the no zone rule. Not being allowed to help out on defense when a player drives to the basket is about as contrary to "real"
basketball as you can get.

One youth parochial league I worked had a 15 point no press rule. Team leading by 15 or more cannot press full-court, only half-court. An age group or two within that leage bans full-court pressing until the 4th quarter, unless the 15-point margin is in effect.

Another youth organizational league I worked has a similar no press rule, only the team that leads by 15 or more must contain their defense within the 3-point line. They cannot even reach over the line to slap the ball away or the like.

Pros: Gives the trailing team an opportunity to run their offense without giving up the ball before setting up. Lets the kids play ball without getting their self-esteem shot to hell.

Cons: Gotta remember which league I'm working, and which age group within the parochial league. Headache after 3 or 4 games on one Saturday afternoon after trying to enforce these rules.

One note I might add is that despite the 15 point no-press rule, I still see some unheavenly blowouts (these leagues are either church schools or church youth organizations leages) that would shame some high school varsity teams.

[Stat-Man]

Let's see if I rmeber our local CYO rules (I'm 2 years removed)...

1] No pressing before December 1st. Pressing allowed ater Jan 1 as long as you're not up by 10+ (4th-6th grade) or 20 (7th/8th grade). Pressing being defined as backcourt defense or trapping above the three point line. Penalty: Warning followed by T's.

2] On the 4th-6th level each player must appear in 2 quarters but notmore than 3. If a game goes into overtime, there are no restrictions.

3] If a team is up by 20, they must keep 2 starters out of the game. If a team is up by 30, all starters must leave the game. Penalty: Same as #1 above

4] No three pointers on 4th-6th level. Allowed in 7th-8th level. Also, if a school has it's own gym without 3 point lines, it's an automatic forfeit loss. If the school uses another facility's gym, the requirement doesn't apply.

I have my opinions on these, but on the whole I appreciate what they are trying to do.

[TigerBball]

[

I don't understand what you mean when you say that you don't teach kids to play defense. Whether man or zone, there is plenty to teach on the defensive side, one main thing being move your feet.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think kids that only learn zone learn how to move and read and anticipate as well as kids that have been taught only zone. Most youth league coaches that use zone have the same philosophy as you, the kids are not smart enough, or attentive enough to play man to man. That is just not true. My daughter's 1st and 2nd grade team plays great man to man D. Sure, they don't always stay with their girl, but they are learning. If I just told them to stay in a spot and play that area, they would not learn near as much.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by just another ref

from the above website:

MINOR ATOM/ATOM (age 7-9) Convenor: Vlad Hrubik 747-5505
1. Defense will be man-to-man and half court. No double-teaming unless offense dribbles into it.
2. No stealing on the dribble.
3. There are no foul shots. Normal fouls shall be in-bounded by fouled team. When bonus is reached, fouled team will receive 1 point and ball. If fouled on a shot team receives 2 points if missed, 3 points if good, defense takes ball.
4. Officials will call the following: double dribble; 5-second inbound violation; travelling;over and back (if gym size permits); 10-second violation;5-seconds closely guarded (only if no passing)
5. Team allowed one 30-second time-out per half (clock keeps running).

We have no stealing on the dribble, but we do have a 5 second closely guarded violation? (only if no passing...what does this mean??) As to the man-to-man requirement which I believe goes all the way up to the 13 year olds, and also includes no double teaming unless offense dribbles into it? Did the person who wrote these rules ever try to get on the court and enforce them? I would like to hear an explanation of how you keep one outstanding player from totally dominating a game if he must always be guarded one on one. Also, in spite of everyone's best efforts, I sometimes find it difficult to tell what kind of defense a team is playing. I would think it would be tough to call a technical on 7 year olds for illegal defense.

Yes, we do have the 5-second count too. I'm not sure about the "only if no passing." We enforce these rules as best we can. Usually the first time in the game we are reminded by a coach. We then catch it the enxt time.

This is just a kid's rec league. There is not one kid who can dominate the game. In fact, as I understand it, there is a draft!

[just another ref]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
This is just a kid's rec league. In fact, as I understand it, there is a draft!

We also have a draft, which is one of the flaws of our league. The coaches draft their own teams, and too many are totally clueless about the game in general and/or the skills of the players. Also, some will pick their own child's friends/schoolmates rather than the best available player. "Okay, baby, who do you like now?" Another coach was heard to say, "She should have picked this one and hoped that her kid could learn to like her."

[Edited by just another ref on Mar 15th, 2004 at 02:05 PM]

[CYO Butch]

1. No zones! (It is not hard to teach m2m to little kids. Sure, they may be chasing around behind their "man" much of the time, but it is not hard to teach them to stay between thier "man" and the basket. Help defense can get introduced as the kids gain a little more experience. They can always learn to play zone when they are older if they get the right skills early. Also, at the beginning of each period, the teams line up for a match-up. There are even some leagues that give each player on each team one of 5 different colored wrist bands. Your "man" is the player with a matching wrist band.)
2. Substitutions only at the end of periods unless injury.
3. 8 minute running clock quarters, except last 2 minutes of game.
4. No player may play more that 2 quarters unless every player has played 2.
5. No player may play more that 3 quarters.
6. Every player must play at least 1 quarter.
7. No full court press
8. 8 1/2 foot baskets
9. No 3 point baskets.
10. Officials have authority over parents/spectators.

Of yeah, no Green Bay Sweeps .

[BayStateRef]

Originally posted by just another ref
I also strongly agree with your exception to the no zone rule. Not being allowed to help out on defense when a player drives to the basket is about as contrary to "real" basketball as you can get.

I find the "no double teaming but help is OK" among the silliest rules in rec basketball. Young girls (5th/6th grade) program. A1, dribbling across the division line, beats B1, and is immediately picked up by B2. Absolutely perfect help defense. But it is also 40 feet from the basket and not allowed. Or big girl has ball in low post, back to basket. Guard is directly behind her, hands straight up. A second defensive player comes over and knocks ball out of hands. Legal? Not to me. This is not help defense -- but is great defense.

My other gripe -- no back court defesne for most young rec (and travel) leagues. If an offensive player makes a pass to no one -- or even to someone on the other team -- the defensive player is not allowed to touch it or catch it. I call it, but then moan that it's a horrible rule.

[Edited by BayStateRef on Mar 15th, 2004 at 01:07 PM]

[just another ref]

Originally posted by BayStateRef
My other gripe -- no back court defesne for most young rec (and travel) leagues. If an offensive player makes a pass to no one -- or even to someone on the other team -- the defensive player is not allowed to touch it or catch it. I call it, but then moan that it's a horrible rule.

This is a rule which has evolved over time in our league
because of just what you mention here. Once a player loses control in the backcourt, all bets are off. This can be a pass to no one or to the wrong team, as you describe, or if a dribbler bounces the ball off his/her own foot, it is anybody's ball, help yourself. Also, on a related subject, it used to be since there was no backcourt pressure allowed, when a foul occurred it did not count. The kids caught on to this, I think, and often took a casual whack at the ball/ballhandler as they passed, and whatever they hit was of no consequence. Now we do count the foul in the backcourt, and the problem has been minimized.