illegal defense

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by EMM
The reason I am asking is because the refs are often selectively enforcing the rules(travels, carrys, double dribbles, reaches, etc).

and then when he is going for rebounds they call over the top all the time

There are no such fouls or violations in basketball as "reaches" or "over the top".

[CYO Butch]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

This is better than "howler monkeys" in my opinion. Even howler monkeys are smarter than couches.

I'm a "Bark"a-lounger myself. I've found that barking while stretched out lying down really makes my point and gets all the calls to go my way.

And by the way, rainmaker has it right. Unless all your officials are HS volunteers without any training, they know the rules and do their best to apply them fairly. They also know the rules better than you do. I don't always agree with specific calls, and I know what it's like to have a big kid get more than his fair share of abuse (it was my son's story all through grade school and middle school). But I became a MUCH better coach when I concentrated on what we could do, not on what the refs were doing.

p.s. Buy a rule book. It's amazing how much there is in there about the game that is really useful for youth coaches.

[Edited by CYO Butch on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 03:54 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by CYO Butch
[/B]

This is better than "howler monkeys" in my opinion. Even howler monkeys are smarter than couches.

[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm a "Bark"a-lounger myself.

[/B][/QUOTE]Nah, you're a coach potato.

[Forksref]

If we didn't have coaches the kids would stay on the couches.

Hopefully, the coaches aren't 'winning is most important' types.

[EMM]

Sigh. Little league basketball. Little league coaches. [/B]

UMM, the purpose of the post was to get a straight answer about the rule. I run layup drills and all my kids touch the ball and shoot. I just feel bad that the kid is allowed to be banged around the way he has been.

When I say the league is very political, there is a reason for it. The teams in the league are supposed to be created fairly to provide each team with ballhandlers, rebounders and big men. Often you see one or two favorite coaches get to handpick their players and games are often blowouts.

In my opinion it is not good for the league to have such imbalance in its inhouse program at this age. To make it worse, the refs used are provided by someone that is involved in to organization that is known to hold grudges and take them out on the court. It is unfortunate, but I am sure you all are aware that this happens.

To make a long story short, I was told by other basketball coaches that were watching my championship game that it was an illegal defense to put one guy in front of my player and one guy in back of him impeding his ability to move. I was told to quietly check into it. So I went to the head ref. (MR Political) and asked him if it was an illegal defense and he told me it wasnt. Then I was told that he went and switched my refs that were supposed to ref my final championship game due to him thinking that one of them alerted me to this rule. So, SIR, it was just a question.

By the way, tonight my boys just won the championship and they did it with all my players contributing. The kids are really great.

One last thing, I keep hearing about $15 to do the games. Who cares about that. If someone is reffing games for $15 and doesnt feel the need to do a good job, then they shouldnt be doing it. The younger kids are the ones that need the better refs so they can learn. I watched another 6 foot kid from another team with Hakeem type skills get away with traveling all year because the ref wanted the game to end early. The kid didnt learn to correct the habit and unfortunatley he will go into next year doing the same thing. If they cant put 100 percent in and apply their knowledge then they should go bag groceries or wait tables for $15.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by EMM
UMM, the purpose of the post was to get a straight answer about the rule. I run layup drills and all my kids touch the ball and shoot. I just feel bad that the kid is allowed to be banged around the way he has been.

Coach, in your original post, it sounded like you were blaming the refs. We just couldn't tell quite what your attitude was.

When I say the league is very political, there is a reason for it. The teams in the league are supposed to be created fairly to provide each team with ballhandlers, rebounders and big men. Often you see one or two favorite coaches get to handpick their players and games are often blowouts.

In my opinion it is not good for the league to have such imbalance in its inhouse program at this age. To make it worse, the refs used are provided by someone that is involved in to organization that is known to hold grudges and take them out on the court. It is unfortunate, but I am sure you all are aware that this happens.

I think the best way to deal with these kinds of issues is to either work from within, and try to change the structure for the better, or find another rec league to be involved with. If most others in the league, parents, board, coaches, dont mind the way things are, or if they aren't willing to make the sacrifices necessary to make things better, you and your own child are better off somewnere else.

To make a long story short, I was told by other basketball coaches that were watching my championship game that it was an illegal defense to put one guy in front of my player and one guy in back of him impeding his ability to move. I was told to quietly check into it. So I went to the head ref. (MR Political) and asked him if it was an illegal defense and he told me it wasnt. Then I was told that he went and switched my refs that were supposed to ref my final championship game due to him thinking that one of them alerted me to this rule.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the "he said, she said" stuff. Just play your games, figure out one or two people who are reliable sources of information (as opposed to gossip), help your kids improve and skip the rest of the stuff.

By the way, tonight my boys just won the championship and they did it with all my players contributing. The kids are really great.

See, we have already helped you!! Just kidding. But seriously, remember that the best revenge is to win. Let the refs do their political thing. Let the board do all the stuff they do. If your kids have a good attitude, and are improving their skills, and those are the reasons for your win, then heck, you've got nothing to complain about. If these things are the case, you're a great coach, doing a great job, and perhaps the other teams in your league will learn a thing or two.

[Bart Tyson]

One last thing, I keep hearing about $15 to do the games. Who cares about that. If someone is reffing games for $15 and doesnt feel the need to do a good job, then they shouldnt be doing it. The younger kids are the ones that need the better refs so they can learn. [/B]

You still don't get it. $15 refs may not have the skills of a $150+ ref. Be thankful you have someone who is willing to go out and take the abuse from coach-want-a-be who thinks he knows the rules and how to ref a game. If you want top officials then take the $ out of your pocket and pay for top officials.

I watched another 6 foot kid from another team with Hakeem type skills get away with traveling all year because the ref wanted the game to end early.
[/B]

If you have never seen a rule book, how do you even know what to look for in traveling. and how do you know they wanted to leave early?

I think you are sounding a whole lot like another so called coach who post in this board. It seems he too could win championship games despite the refs. Sooo to sum this up, I don't believe a word you have said and i don't even think you are a coach.

[EMM]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

You still don't get it. $15 refs may not have the skills of a $150+ ref. Be thankful you have someone who is willing to go out and take the abuse from coach-want-a-be who thinks he knows the rules and how to ref a game. If you want top officials then take the $ out of your pocket and pay for top officials.

If you have never seen a rule book, how do you even know what to look for in traveling. and how do you know they wanted to leave early?

I think you are sounding a whole lot like another so called coach who post in this board. It seems he too could win championship games despite the refs. Sooo to sum this up, I don't believe a word you have said and i don't even think you are a coach.


[/B]

You know Bart, that is just plain not fair.

Number 1, the refs that do my games also do the outside program games and 15-17 year old games. They make all the calls and know the rules and are perfectly capable of keeping up with a fast paced run and gun game.

Number 2, I play basketball every Sunday night with the other coaches and refs and have heard one of the refs say that he didnt call certain calls because he wanted the game to end early. He happens to coach the 8 year old travel team and wanted to keep his game on track he said.

Number 3, I didnt realize that you needed to read an entire rule book to know what a traveling violation was or a carry. The kid I was speaking about would receive the ball in the high post, pivot and face the basket. Good so far. Then he would fake left and go right taking a step without dribbling the ball and proceed to take another step before finally dribbling. Now this kid was the same height as my big guy, only this kid could jump 3 x as high and was skinny, quick and could dribble. There was no reason for the refs to let him get away with that move all year. It hurt him because he didnt learn to change the habit. His coach didnt correct it, because he wasnt getting called on it and it allowed him to beat the other big kids to the basket and get a layup.

As far as me being a coach, my son is 11 and I have been coaching his teams since he was 4. I really think it is funny how one little question turns into a whole big thing. Bottom line is that my team is a good group of kids that I practice with every week and the kids all listen. The board in my league actually had a meeting and asked the refs to make the calls for the playoffs and championship games and they actually did a good job calling the games showing they are perfectly capable. The only problem that I had was with the double and triple teaming. But we worked around it anyway.

[Hawks Coach]

Bart
I share EMM's disappointment with your reply. I am not sure that anything he said justifies responding in this manner. It seems a tad on the harsh side to me.

EMM
You have been coaching and playing a while, so you know the drill. Every ref will do things differently. In lower level games, there are many who will not give them the attention that I believe these games deserve. Some refs are just there to get the game over with. It is unfortunate, but that is reality.

There are many others who want to call the game well, but may choose to pass on certain calls in younger age groups and lower skill levels. If the games consistently aren't staying on schedule and the schedule is reasonable, then there are probably too many whistles for the skill level of the players. If they are right on schedule, then the refs have probably done an ok job of balancing the rules of basketball with the flow of a game.

Refs in lower level games can't, won't and shouldn't call everything. What they choose to call and to ignore is not always scientific, and it may not always seem consistent, though hopefully they are trying to be. I used to referee youth soccer and had the same issue, though with all the bball violations, it is even more complicated. It is very difficult to call these games. That's what you live with in the lower age groups.

If you have an issue with one league and have options, vote with your feet. I coach AAU, and will not return to some tournaments/organizations because of the group of refs they employ. Other tournaments I make it a point to go to because the reffing is so well done and I think my players deserve to have well-refereed games. This is sometimes the option you have to take if you think it is that bad.

[EMM]

Good response Hawks Coach. Thank you.

I agree that not every whistle should be blown, but when a kid that talented uses a specific non legal move to gain an advantage and he does it over and over as part of his game, the whistle should be blown on those plays. However, sometimes the kids feet or hands just are too fast or too slow for the game play and some of those calls should be let to slide.

In our league though, the clock is a running clock on all whistles except for fouls so the games really cant go off track unless people keep fouling and going to the line. From my experience, I think that all the travels and carries and ball handling calls should be made. As far as fouls go I would like to see the kids be able to play a little without the whistle being blown for every little pitty pat foul.

Thanks for the good reply.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Bart
I share EMM's disappointment with your reply. I am not sure that anything he said justifies responding in this manner. It seems a tad on the harsh side to me.

Hawks, "anything"-? How about the $15 conment, just for starters? Selectively inforcing the rules, Political, wants his kids treated fair. Most of his comments were questioning the integrity of the officials.

Way back, when I ref'd biddy ball, ymca, little kids. The younger the age group the worse the parents and coaches, and yes the Officials. We all were learning. I didn't know any officials who did anything but their best. Yes, our best was not very good, but it had nothing to do with integrity.