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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 08:24am
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Angry

Along similar lines as the thread regarding comments to coaches. (Different type of "comment")

I have found myself calling most of my technical fouls for unsporting behavior when I am reporting a foul to the table and the coach against whose team the foul was called is complaining. I don't know why but this really makes me boil! I've just called a foul, I'm going to the table trying to keep a number of items in mind -- player who fouled, color of team that fouled, player who WAS fouled, the penalty for the foul (OOB, two free throws, etc), etc. The last thing I want is a coach objecting to a call whil and I have a coach directly complaining to my face about the call (or other calls I've missed). Before I report, I usually tell the coach, "I've heard enough. Take your seat." I've typically only called the technical if they persist by continuing to complain.

Do any of you have similar situations that make you boil? Would any of you handle this situation differently? Any suggestions?
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Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 08:57am
Suppref
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Now that the reporting area has increased,and most of the information can be given with hand signals, I try to stay as far away from the table as possible. While I'm checking the book prior to game, I tell scorekeeper to acknowledge he has all information necessary, then I move on. If the coach is still complaining I'm already gone to resume play, and he's 40 feet away!
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Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 11:06am
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Mike, as suppref already said try to report from further
away, even use the NCAA mechanic of clearing the players
rather than going to the fed box if coaches tend to
"get in your face". You probably realize this but try
and keep in mind that coaches are biased and sometimes
they just want to vent a little or even "get into your
head". Work on ignoring their comments.

Also, it's a good practice to ignore
everything & everyone, including warning the coach until
you've reported the foul. As you've said there's a lot to
remember everytme you bow that whistle!
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Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 11:23am
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Lightbulb More typical of your area I believe.

I think that is more in your area. I happen to live in an area where there are many college and HS officials along with evaluators. The HS assignors here do not want us using NCAA mechanics in reporting fouls. You are not just suppose to clear the players, you are suppose to come somewhat in the middle of the court (the NF did move this area back away from the table) and stop and report the foul. And because there is many assignors that do college too, they know what college mechanics are and the tend make a big deal about sticking to NF mechanics.

I was critizised in most of my camps because I did not come to a complete stop when I called a foul. I would do a slow walk and evaluators were all over me because of that!!!


Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Mike, as suppref already said try to report from further
away, even use the NCAA mechanic of clearing the players
rather than going to the fed box if coaches tend to
"get in your face". You probably realize this but try
and keep in mind that coaches are biased and sometimes
they just want to vent a little or even "get into your
head". Work on ignoring their comments.

Also, it's a good practice to ignore
everything & everyone, including warning the coach until
you've reported the foul. As you've said there's a lot to
remember everytme you bow that whistle!
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Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 12:43pm
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Rut,

Yeah I understand that some places might crack down on
using the NCAA mechanic to report fouls in a HS game
but if Mike can do that it might help him. And the fed
box has been moved further from the table so he can use
that as well.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 03:21pm
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Smile

If you have a vocal coach..... and your local assoc. is big on the reporting area designated by NF.....Move to the farthest spot allowed from the verbal coach!

By the way! was that foul on 23 or 32(and those two players are twins)!!!!!

AK ref SE
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Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 04:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by AK ref SE
If you have a vocal coach..... and your local assoc. is big on the reporting area designated by NF.....Move to the farthest spot allowed from the verbal coach!

By the way! was that foul on 23 or 32(and those two players are twins)!!!!!

AK ref SE
Geeze partner, I had it on #3, player control right???
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 10:33pm
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"The foul was on "52"? What? 52 didn't foul? I know I saw the number 52 on a player who commited a foul. Now the only way #52 couldn't have fouled is if he's not in the book and coach, that is a technical foul. (To other teams coach) Coach who do you want to shoot the technical freethrows?" - recognize the tongue-in-cheek nature of this.

One of the many things i have been working on this year is staying away from the table when I am reporting fouls. In very few instances do I ever get closer to the table than I need to be. It's only my second year officiating and I haven't developed the ability to tune out coaches or fans and staying away from them helps. I've been told "Ignore the fans and don't pay any attention to the coaches when they whine." I'm getting there but I still hear them.

Part of my problem is inexperience in dealing with situations where conflict arises and part of my solution has been issuing "T's" for poor behavior by a coach.

Real life experience from this year.

Girls 7th Grade girls basketball tournament game at a host school. I call a foul on a girl for illegal hands (the old "Reach In"). I am trail and after I report the foul the foul to the table, the coach is standing up saying, "That is a terrible call. How can you make such a terrible call?" TWEET, I give him the technical. As I report the "T", both he AND his assistant are standing up and whining at me "Ref, that was a horrible call." TWEET, I called the second T on the head coach and he was gone. As I am reporting the second technical foul to the table, the coach comes up to me, gets right in my face and says, "It's too bad you don't have a little more patience" I turned and went to my position and made sure the coach left the gym.

one week later: This coach is the coach for the Jr High 8th grade girls team and they are invited to play in the same tournament as the 7th grade team. This coach has already served his mandatory one-game suspension. During this game, this coach was the most cooperative coach and didn't whine about a call the entire night. He simply COACHED his team to a victory.

Now I don't believe that coach likes me, but I haven't been black-balled by that school or the host school.

With all the emphasis this year on sportsmanship, I have taken an iron-hand approach to stopping coaches from complaining about calls. Coaches questioning calls incites the crowd to start questioning calls and that's when my game goes to h*ll. This is the approach I take. I ignore the first objection. I warn the coach for the next objection by saying something like, "Coach, I will not listen to objections all night. I've heard enough and I won't hear any more." The third verbal objection, however slight, I nail the coach with a "T".

Comments that I warn for:
i.e. "He walked", "get him off his back", "Call the block", etc.

Comments that I give an immediate technical foul for:
"That's a terrible call", etc.

I am a reasonable person and if a coach approaches me in a reasonable fashion, I will give him a reasonable response. But I want to stop the crowd-inciting comments quickly.

I may be taking too much of a hardline approach but I'm experimenting with it this year to see how it works for me. Next year, (if I even do this again) I plan to back off quite a bit.


Halftime Situation I want advice on:

Doing the JV game before a Varsity game at a small school. We are put in the coaches office that is right in the Home team's locker room. Instead of having a full wall, this school uses a wire mesh above the wall material so we can hear the coaches and the coaches can hear us. At halftime, the coach says, "And guys, keep boxing out because eventually the refs have got to call the over-the-back. I know they can hear me and they will start calling it, but you've got to keep boxing out." We weren't calling the over-the-back because there were no "over-the-back" calls to make. The rebounding action was pretty clean.

What would you have done if anything?
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Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 10:53pm
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From reading your post, it sounds to me like you're probably way too quick. As I said on another thread, I've found that if you COMPLETELY ignore most comments (unless they are personal, derogatory, or excessive), usually things seem to settle down.

It seems to me that once you start acknowledging the comments or letting people see that the comments are getting to you, that's when the major problems start.

I believe that ignoring coaches is an art form. I normally hear what they say, but in no way whatsoever flinch or otherwise acknowledge their existence. Now, if a coach has a "legitimate" question, of course I will take the time to explain the call in a calm, polite manner.


By the way, I've had a rough stretch of games myself. In the past 6 games, I've called 6 T's. It's really no fun!
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Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 11:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikesears
"The foul was on "52"? What? 52 didn't foul? I know I saw the number 52 on a player who commited a foul. Now the only way #52 couldn't have fouled is if he's not in the book and coach, that is a technical foul. (To other teams coach) Coach who do you want to shoot the technical freethrows?" - recognize the tongue-in-cheek nature of this.

One of the many things i have been working on this year is staying away from the table when I am reporting fouls. In very few instances do I ever get closer to the table than I need to be. It's only my second year officiating and I haven't developed the ability to tune out coaches or fans and staying away from them helps. I've been told "Ignore the fans and don't pay any attention to the coaches when they whine." I'm getting there but I still hear them.

Part of my problem is inexperience in dealing with situations where conflict arises and part of my solution has been issuing "T's" for poor behavior by a coach.

Real life experience from this year.

Girls 7th Grade girls basketball tournament game at a host school. I call a foul on a girl for illegal hands (the old "Reach In"). I am trail and after I report the foul the foul to the table, the coach is standing up saying, "That is a terrible call. How can you make such a terrible call?" TWEET, I give him the technical. As I report the "T", both he AND his assistant are standing up and whining at me "Ref, that was a horrible call." TWEET, I called the second T on the head coach and he was gone. As I am reporting the second technical foul to the table, the coach comes up to me, gets right in my face and says, "It's too bad you don't have a little more patience" I turned and went to my position and made sure the coach left the gym.

one week later: This coach is the coach for the Jr High 8th grade girls team and they are invited to play in the same tournament as the 7th grade team. This coach has already served his mandatory one-game suspension. During this game, this coach was the most cooperative coach and didn't whine about a call the entire night. He simply COACHED his team to a victory.

Now I don't believe that coach likes me, but I haven't been black-balled by that school or the host school.

With all the emphasis this year on sportsmanship, I have taken an iron-hand approach to stopping coaches from complaining about calls. Coaches questioning calls incites the crowd to start questioning calls and that's when my game goes to h*ll. This is the approach I take. I ignore the first objection. I warn the coach for the next objection by saying something like, "Coach, I will not listen to objections all night. I've heard enough and I won't hear any more." The third verbal objection, however slight, I nail the coach with a "T".

Comments that I warn for:
i.e. "He walked", "get him off his back", "Call the block", etc.

Comments that I give an immediate technical foul for:
"That's a terrible call", etc.

I am a reasonable person and if a coach approaches me in a reasonable fashion, I will give him a reasonable response. But I want to stop the crowd-inciting comments quickly.

I may be taking too much of a hardline approach but I'm experimenting with it this year to see how it works for me. Next year, (if I even do this again) I plan to back off quite a bit.


Halftime Situation I want advice on:

Doing the JV game before a Varsity game at a small school. We are put in the coaches office that is right in the Home team's locker room. Instead of having a full wall, this school uses a wire mesh above the wall material so we can hear the coaches and the coaches can hear us. At halftime, the coach says, "And guys, keep boxing out because eventually the refs have got to call the over-the-back. I know they can hear me and they will start calling it, but you've got to keep boxing out." We weren't calling the over-the-back because there were no "over-the-back" calls to make. The rebounding action was pretty clean.

What would you have done if anything?
Mike, this is a tough time in your ref'ing career. Most
good coaches can tell you're kinda new so they're testing
you. And you are also bumping into a lot of "lower level"
coaches who are as new as you are. But giving out T's is
a part of our business that you have to get comfortable
with, and by that I mean you're going to go through a period
when you give out way too many (like now?) and a period
when you don't give out enough and finally you'll settle
on a reasonable balance. As for the crowd, well, **** 'em.
This game is for the players, not you or the coaches or
the crowd. Hang in there, you'll get the hang of it. In
the meantime try to work on ignoring *everything*. It might
be tough but don't take it so personally. How to handle the
complainers? Easy! At any comment, complaint or suggestion
just smile & say "Thanks coach, I hear you!"
"That's a walk!" or "Over the back!" or "Call the block!"
"Thanks coach, I'll get it next time!" Remember don't let
your ref'ing turn into a personal thing between you and
the coach. You're a benevolent dictator, not a tyrant.
As for the coach in the locker room, ignore that stuff, it
means nothing. But if you can't ignore it, laugh at it.
Can you imagine how powerful it would have been if you
would have just started laughing loudly when he made that
comment? And then start the second half with an "over
the back" on his team? See, there's much more to this
game than T's. Hang in there!
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Dec 13, 2000, 11:35pm
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Wink

First things first, report the foul and try to ignore the coach. Sounds like the game is working you rather then you working the game.

Ignoring a coach while you report is your primary, this will "teach" the coach not to talk to you while your are reporting fouls. Once you have reported get away and get the ball in play that will shut them up. If he persists ring him up, and don't let him see that he is getting your goat!

The next time you have this coach talk to him before the game and let him know that you can not tolerate his questioning every time you are reporting. Be firm and consistant and everything will work out.

Good Luck
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Old Thu Dec 14, 2000, 12:45am
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Mike you brought in a lot of positives with this thread and a lot of good feed back especialy from dan. This is my 6th first year, that is to say I do not pay state dues only local. Now what this means is I only work sub-varsity which at this time in my life is fine as I enjoy 2 games per night. One day it will all fall into place keep reading and talking to other officals and then find what works best for you.
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Old Thu Dec 14, 2000, 12:57am
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Lightbulb Mike.

You are talking way too much to the coaches. If they cannot show you some respect and talk to you when you are standing next to them, do not give them a time of day. I would never say just simply ignore a coach, because what they say can help you anticipate their mood. When you hear some of the comments, you know when it is getting out of hand or not, then and only then can you react with a warning or even a T. This takes time to understand. My process got speeded up by doing football as a Side Judge and an Umpire in baseball and softball. I was able by doing all of these sports including basketball to understand what I need to say and when I needed to keep my mouth shut. It also depends on your years of experience and how they react to you. If coaches know you are new, the will talk to you totally different, then if you were a seasoned veteran. And most of all, you almost never want to talk to a coach being stupid when you are reporting a foul.
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Old Thu Dec 14, 2000, 02:43am
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Mike--
This is my second year, too, and I'm finding that I have two tools that work. One, as mentioned in the Talking to Coaches thread, is to just quote the rule number. If I'm desperate, I make it up, but I have gone through and memorized a few of the common complaint numbers. This really shuts them up for some reason which I'm not quite sure of. I just say quietly, "Rule 9-7, Coach" or "Coach it's in section 10-6" I've been amazed.

The other thing that works when they are complaining about "Watch for the fouls, ref" "Three seconds! Three seconds!" over and over, I finally turn to them WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT, "Coach, if you want me to discuss it, you need to call a time out." I've actually had coaches do this a couple of times this year and it scared me at first, but I kept my cool, explained succinctly, and it worked. No more yelling! I don't quite know why and it may not work for you, but you might try it and see.

These things are for when the coach is just "chipping". If they ask an honest question, like, "What'd she do ref?" I always answer immediately and quickly, and then get on with the game. But the other stuff is too annoying for me to ignore all game--I'm with you there!
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Old Thu Dec 14, 2000, 03:58pm
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comments to coaches

I think a coach has a right to say "terrible call" It is when a coach makes it personal..aka.."Your terrible" that i have a problem and will most likely "T" him/her. Stay away from the benches....getting too close just invites trouble!!!

Mikeref
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