"L" 5 sec. count

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson


Questionable

Huh?

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Huh?

It does talk about the C and the T, but doesn't say anything about the L.

[Bart Tyson]

I just wanted to see if I could copy the face.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

It does talk about the C and the T, but doesn't say anything about the L.

Well Bart. So if they book says that the T and the C have the three point shot attempt, so you have to have a specific reference to disallow the L from putting up the 3 point shot?

Bart, this is not allowed. If you attend any camp, they will not allow it that. Not unless you are going to a Women's camp. I realize that you seem to be having trouble with understanding that the Women's mechanics are not the same as the Men's or the NF, but they are. One of the reasons that there were officials that got in trouble for not using Women's mechanics in NCAA games in my area. They are not the same. The lead cannot in Men's or NF give a 5 second count. Any count from the Lead is an NBA/NCAA Women's thang.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Well Bart. So if they book says that the T and the C have the three point shot attempt, so you have to have a specific reference to disallow the L from putting up the 3 point shot?

Bart, this is not allowed. If you attend any camp, they will not allow it that. Not unless you are going to a Women's camp. I realize that you seem to be having trouble with understanding that the Women's mechanics are not the same as the Men's or the NF, but they are. One of the reasons that there were officials that got in trouble for not using Women's mechanics in NCAA games in my area. They are not the same. The lead cannot in Men's or NF give a 5 second count. Any count from the Lead is an NBA/NCAA Women's thang.

Peace

Nothing says they "cannot". Perhaps "shouldn't" is more approriate. Yes, the mechanics are different, but if you are counting 5, they're not going to run on the floor and tie your arm to your waist to prevent it. If the lead does signal a 3 point shot or calls 5 seconds, then, it's a 3-pointer or a 5 second violation unless I see something different.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust


Nothing says they "cannot". Perhaps "shouldn't" is more approriate. Yes, the mechanics are different, but if you are counting 5, they're not going to run on the floor and tie your arm to your waist to prevent it. If the lead does signal a 3 point shot or calls 5 seconds, then, it's a 3-pointer or a 5 second violation unless I see something different.

You are right. There is no one holding a gun to anyone's head if they count as the lead. But I know many assignors that might not hire you or might limit your schedule if you do such a thing. Just like there is nothing holding you back from signaling a 3 point shot in a 3 Person HS game as well. But you might just suffer some consequences. And if you do that in games I do or with people that I am used to work with, you would be the only one doing it. Because even the D1 Women's officials that I have worked with this year, did not do that in a HS game that I worked.

So it comes back to the thing I always say, it is a free country, but if you want to be respected or get opportunities at the HS level, do not bring those college mechanics to that level. Of course there are some things that are acceptable (before this year it was the kick signal), but this is not one of them.

Peace

[Bart Tyson]

Well Bart. So if they book says that the T and the C have the three point shot attempt, so you have to have a specific reference to disallow the L from putting up the 3 point shot? [/B]

The book doesn't word it the way you say above. Its talks about transition from C to T and T to C where the official continues the count.

Bart, this is not allowed.[/B]

OK I give, uncle, no mass, you win. I feel like I'm on a losing streek.

[JRutledge]

Bart,

If you want to show up working a game in a tutu, then show up with at tutu.

That is totally your choice what you do. I am not one of the folks you have to explain why you are doing what you are doing.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Do not have an official answer, but I am sure it is because the primary job of the Lead is to cover plays close to the paint. It just does not make sense to have a five second count all over the court if the player moves. Not an issue in Women's games.

Page 48, number 302.

As I stated before, it would not be practical for the Lead to have a 5 second count, when the count could continue all over the court. NCAA Women does not have that issue, they only have the count when the ball handler is holding the ball, not dribbling. And the NBA also does not have a "regular" 5 second count, and that is where the NCAA Women get their basic philosophies from.

Peace

There is nothing in Paragraph 302 of the 2003-05 NFHS Officials Manual that prohibits the L from having a five second count.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
There is nothing in Paragraph 302 of the 2003-05 NFHS Officials Manual that prohibits the L from having a five second count.

MTD, Sr.

Whatever you say Mark.

Peace

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Whatever you say Mark.

Peace

You can roll your eyes Jeff, but Paragraph 302 says nothing about prohibiting the L from having a five second count. I suggest that you actually read what the paragraph says before you run your mouth about it.

MTD, Sr.

[jeffpea]

For College Men - the 2003-04 CCA 3-Man Mechanics manual provides a diagram of court coverage for 5-second counting violations on page 74 (Section 18 - Counting, Article 3 - Five Second Count). The front court is divided nearly in half. T has the area bounded by: halfcourt line, the near sideline, the baseline (to the FT lane line) and the "mid-line" of the floor - from half-court to the FT line. C has his entire half of the floor including the entire 3-second area. It clearly provides the 5-second counting responsibility to either T or C depending on location of the ball; INCLUDING when the offensive post player has the ball on the block directly in front of the L.

While I cannot cite the specific NFHS rule or mechanic, I have ALWAYS been instructed by clinicians, assignors, and veteran officials that L should NEVER have a 5 second count using NFHS mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.



You can roll your eyes Jeff, but Paragraph 302 says nothing about prohibiting the L from having a five second count. I suggest that you actually read what the paragraph says before you run your mouth about it.

MTD, Sr.

OK Mark. Have the Lead start a count near the endline and have to make sure they have a closely guarded player all the way to the division line. Because the Lead can see the entire play and determine if a defender is within 6 feet and it would be acceptable for the lead to then blow a 5 second call. You are right Mark, what the the heck was I thinking? The Lead can call a 5 second call. That is extremely practical. I will make sure I talk to our state to tell them your assessment and make sure they follow it.

Anything else you want to share?

Peace