Coach loses cool..what would you do?

[Bart Tyson]

Mark, why does the partner need to tell the coach why he got a T? 1) he knows why he got the T. 2) the calling official reports it to the table. Also, why is it necessary to tell him what happens if he gets another T?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Mark, why does the partner need to tell the coach why he got a T? 1) he knows why he got the T. 2) the calling official reports it to the table. Also, why is it necessary to tell him what happens if he gets another T?

Preventative officiating. The idea is not to bait a coach, but if he is going to get a second technical foul it should hopefully not be from the official that gave him the first one. Lets face it, when a coach gets a technical foul the official who gave it to him is now the object of that coach's affections. I have yet to see a coach who immediately turns around and goes and sits down on his team's bench the instant he received the technical. A coach will always want to "talk" to the official who gave him the technical and that is not good.

Watch a college (men's or women's), NBA, or WNBA game. Whenever a coach receives a technical, another official heads off the coach and gets him back to his bench. You may not believe it but many coaches do not have a clue as to why they received a technical foul. Most coaches beleive that because they have just have received a technical foul, it gives them the right to have an upclose and personal conversation with the official that whacked him. The job of the other official is to turn the coach around and remind him that he does not want to continue down the path that he wants to travel.

[tomegun]

MTD, wrong, wrong, wrong!

Yes, you do want to get with your partners after a T but that is to make sure you know what they got and know what you are going to do. Shoot two, ball at half court or point of interruption and so forth. This will also help calm the calling official down. Yes you do need to tell the coach that he must sit. Someone needs to tell him and depending on the situation sometimes it doesn't matter who. I will not, I repeat will not tell a coach why my partner gave him a T. If you are my partner you are a big boy and you can tell him yourself if you so desire. Other than that a up close and personal with a coach looks bad to the other coach whether it is a T or anything else. You have nothing to gain by going over to an upset coach and telling him he has to sit down and why he got the T. Also, why would you have to tell him he will be ejected if he gets another one? To calm him down? Sounds like consoling to me. This does not fall under the preventive officiating category to me. I'm going to do some preventive officiating mostly between the lines.
Nothing but bad things can happen during a dead ball? Don't you know there are some inexperienced officials that could be reading your posts and you say something like this? If I'm taking what you are trying to convey out of context please explain but in general this statement is about as false as false can get. You can do a lot of good things during a dead ball. Dead ball situations can help your game go so much smoother!

[ronny mulkey]

Good post.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
If you hair is straight, I can make it curly. If you hair is curly, I can make it straight. If you have hair, I can make it fall out. If you are bald, I can make you grow it. I think everyone is gettin my point.

You secretly desire to be a hairdresser?

[Bart Tyson]

I have yet to see a coach who immediately turns around and goes and sits down on his team's bench the instant he received the technical. A coach will always want to "talk" to the official who gave him the technical and that is not good.

The job of the other official is to turn the coach around and remind him that he does not want to continue down the path that he wants to travel. [/B]

This I can accept. This is part of having him seated. He won't get any explanations from me. I keep it short and simple.

I also don't think its fair to compare NBA/WNBA coaches/games with HS coaches/games. I don't have a clue what the guidelines are for NBA/WNBA. However, I would guess they are different.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
Good post.

Who made the good post?

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by tomegun
MTD, wrong, wrong, wrong!

Yes, you do want to get with your partners after a T but that is to make sure you know what they got and know what you are going to do. Shoot two, ball at half court or point of interruption and so forth. This will also help calm the calling official down. Yes you do need to tell the coach that he must sit. Someone needs to tell him and depending on the situation sometimes it doesn't matter who. I will not, I repeat will not tell a coach why my partner gave him a T. If you are my partner you are a big boy and you can tell him yourself if you so desire. Other than that a up close and personal with a coach looks bad to the other coach whether it is a T or anything else. You have nothing to gain by going over to an upset coach and telling him he has to sit down and why he got the T. Also, why would you have to tell him he will be ejected if he gets another one? To calm him down? Sounds like consoling to me. This does not fall under the preventive officiating category to me. I'm going to do some preventive officiating mostly between the lines.
Nothing but bad things can happen during a dead ball? Don't you know there are some inexperienced officials that could be reading your posts and you say something like this? If I'm taking what you are trying to convey out of context please explain but in general this statement is about as false as false can get. You can do a lot of good things during a dead ball. Dead ball situations can help your game go so much smoother!

Six years ago, I was officiating a NAIA women's game. The home head coach was the dean of the conference coaches. I had never before officiated her or her team. During the course of the first half, it was obvious that she was not happy with the job that my partner and I were doing, so much so that about half way throught the first half I had to give her the stop sign and a warning.

About two-thirds away into the half, from the L, opposite the table position, I called a foul on one of her players, a shooting foul. I moved out to the center of the court, clearing the players, but staying on the far side of the center circle to report the foul. Coach H(ome Team) stepped out of the coaching box onto the court to complain about my call. Technical foul. At this point my partner who was L, table-side did nothing. The coach, upset about the foul on her player and now receiving a technical foul, started coming at me.

Everybody in the gym, except my wife (but that is another story), knew that I had just whacked Coach H. I started back pedaling and looking for my partner to intercept Coach H, but he just stood there never moving. He had plenty of time to intercept Coach H, but did not. I put up a stop sign but Coach H just blew right through it. The result was a second direct technical foul on Coach H from me and her disqualification and ejection from the game.

Could this second technical foul been avoided? Yes. How? The off official should have headed off Coach H after the first technical foul. If Coach H was going to get a second technical foul, it should not have been from me but from my partner. I have three officiating friends that evaluate Division I officials and all three of them could not understand why my partner did not intercept Coach H.

My partner and I talked about it at half time. He did not know why either except to say that he thought she was going to stop once she got the first technical foul. Thinking that she was going to stop was a big mistake.

While I do not have a problem with an official taking care of business, to the point that a coach has to be ejected, then that official has to take care of business. This ejection was not my first (it was my first at the college level, and I had been officiating college ball for 23 years at the time). But, our jobs as officials are to try to prevent situations from escalating if at all possible. This was an ejection that should not have happened.

I am not saying that I am the perfect official, far from it, but a technical foul is a major breakdown in the game, and things must be done in attempt major breakdowns from going from bad to worse.


Tomegun:

Read my post below to Bart, about what to say and to handle a coach who has just received a technical foul. Dead ball efficiency is important. And yes, bad things happen during dead ball situations. As officials, we want the ball to be put back into play as efficiently as possible. When the ball is in play, the coach now has to turn his attention back to coaching his team (hopefully), at not at the officials. And yes, I hope that inexperienced officials read my post and will learn that dead ball efficiency is very important, and that the sooner the ball can be put back into play the better.

Fred Horgan, a past president of IAABO, who represents Canada on the FIBA Techncial Board, has a great lecture about dead ball efficiency. I do not know off hand which IAABO Board to which he belongs, but I am sure that one of our Canadian members of this forum and get information to you as to how to contact Fred. I am sure that Fred has put to paper his lecture and he might possible send you a copy of it. Of course hearing Fred presenting it in person is a treat that just cannot be beat. But his thought on dead ball efficiency might be very helpful to you.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson

This I can accept. This is part of having him seated. He won't get any explanations from me. I keep it short and simple.

I also don't think its fair to compare NBA/WNBA coaches/games with HS coaches/games. I don't have a clue what the guidelines are for NBA/WNBA. However, I would guess they are different. [/B]

Bart:

You are absolutely correct. Keep is short and simple. All he needs to know is that he received a technical foul for unsportsmanlike conduct and or violating the coaching box rule, and he has lost his coaching box privileges. Reminding him that he could be ejected if he receives a second direct technical foul, is not a threat but should be viewed as a second warning to the coach. No one wants to have to write a game report for a coach ejection if it can be prevented Short and to the point. As I said in my post, all of this should not take more that 45 seconds or so.

And one other thing that should be discussed by the officials during their short conference is which team is going to shoot free throws, how many free throws, which basket the free throws are going to be attempted, and who is going to administer the free throws and the ensueing throw-in so as to keep the official that called the technical foul on the far side of the court away from the coach that received the technical foul. Sometimes, the coach's actions require that this type of information is discussed after he is escorted to his bench.

But lets face it a technical foul on a coach is never a fun thing.

MTD, Sr.

[Bart Tyson]

Mark,I understand what you are saying. I think probably we are on the same page. I don't know about 45sec. I can see maybe 10sec. But, your 45 sec might be my 10 sec. bottom line, what ever works for the officiating team.

[tomegun]

MTD, man have you changed your tune! No thanks on the "lecture" I have been mentored by some of the best current officials in the country and I know the power of what we can do as officials during dead ball. Maybe you need a refresher since you previously said "only bad things can happen during a dead ball." Now you are saying what occurs during a dead ball is important? Is that your final answer?
You are saying too much to a coach during the administration of a T that your partner gave him. If I was your partner I would have a problem with you for that at halftime or after the game. Anything that takes longer than "coach you must remain seated for the rest of the game" it too long and you will not change my feelings about that. Plus you don't have to get in the coaches personal space when you say that so you can say it in passing. I would not want to wait for the coach to sit down because that will give him more of a reason to argue his case with me. A conversation with a coach like you describe would not sit well with me. Period.

[footlocker]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
... but a technical foul is a major breakdown in the game, and things must be done in attempt major breakdowns from going from bad to worse.

Ok. I agree with your post. Except... is a Technical a major breakdown in a game. No. I don't think so. Coaches and players react to things without thinking. Sometimes a T is warranted and is an excellent tool in officiating.

Does this statement mean that every game with a technical foul had at least one major breakdown?

Your posts are generally very coherent. Was this statement a little hasty?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by tomegun
MTD, man have you changed your tune! No thanks on the "lecture" I have been mentored by some of the best current officials in the country and I know the power of what we can do as officials during dead ball. Maybe you need a refresher since you previously said "only bad things can happen during a dead ball." Now you are saying what occurs during a dead ball is important? Is that your final answer?
You are saying too much to a coach during the administration of a T that your partner gave him. If I was your partner I would have a problem with you for that at halftime or after the game. Anything that takes longer than "coach you must remain seated for the rest of the game" it too long and you will not change my feelings about that. Plus you don't have to get in the coaches personal space when you say that so you can say it in passing. I would not want to wait for the coach to sit down because that will give him more of a reason to argue his case with me. A conversation with a coach like you describe would not sit well with me. Period.

tomegun:

I haven't changed my tune at all. What I am trying to have with you is a intelligent conversation. I think that you have forgotten is that this forum exists so that officials can have intelligent learned discussions about the rules and mechanics, and how to apply them to plays in the real world; not for tirads against other officials on this board.

MTD, Sr.

[tomegun]

MTD, I'm not trying to have a "tirade" (is that correct?) against you. If we were to do a game together I don't think we would have a problem at all. But if you went and babysat a coach after I T'd him up we would have a big problem! If I T him let me explain if I want to. If you want to simply tell him he has to remain seated I'm fine with that. There is no reason for you to say anything more. Doing that will make a coach think he has your ear and I'm a jerk. Now, I will T a kid up in a second if it is warranted but I can only recall giving a coach a T in a rec game this year. If I T a coach up it will be obvious as to why and no further explaination is needed. That's just my point of view and if you think about it I don't see where the problem is. The coach is an adult and if he values the ability to coach the next game he will calm down. If not and it goes that far then the coach will be gone. And, as I've stated before I have no problem giving the second T. I've been burned by not doing it and that won't happen again. Keep in mind it is not in my nature to just go into a game whacking coaches.
Now as far as your comments about dead ball I will give your quotes from two different posts in this thread:

"Only bad things happen when the ball is dead, "

and

And yes, I hope that inexperienced officials read my post and will learn that dead ball efficiency is very important, and that the sooner the ball can be put back into play the better.


That is a straight cut and paste. The first paste is false, false, false. You said it and I think the responsible thing to do for the benefit of the younger officials is to retract it.
You went on to suggest that I look at a lecture from one of your name droppees. Your quote "But his thought on dead ball efficiency might be very helpful to you." You were officiating before I was a thought and if he was one of your mentors that makes him "experienced." I'm no rookie. Maybe your friend needs to listen to my thoughts because coaches and players have changed. I can see you getting easily manipulated and sucked into some crap by one of these coaches out here now. What was done 10 years ago does not always apply to 2004.

Man, I just read one of your posts again. I just have to ask this, what makes you think that your bleep don't stink? There are many guys on this board that give insight and disagree but they don't come across as pompous as you. I'm sorry, but I just managed a big-time game. We had a good crew that worked well together and some things about officiating make me sick. Politics by people who can't practice what they preach but offer some advice contrary to those at a higher level that do officiate is one of those things. Are you still an active official?


[Edited by tomegun on Feb 6th, 2004 at 10:23 PM]

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Luke: You have so much anger in you. If you do not let the Force be with you, the Dark Side will claim you. Oops, I am sorry, I thought I was chatting with Luke Skywalker and not tomegun.

tomegun: You have so much anger in you. Have you thought of seeking anger management counseling. As I have stated in the past, one the purposes of this forum is to have civilized and learned discussions about rules and mechanics and how to apply them in the real world. You seem to have forgotten that. If you find that you cannot conduct yourself in such a manner I would suggest that you consider not posting until you can.

MTD, Sr.