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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 03:21pm
Never Stop Learning
 
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Was doing a 4A varsity game the other night when the horn blows at approx. 4 minutes into the game. Scorer has lost track of the score. It was a very fast pace game and I as ref had some what of an idea of the score but not certain. We use official scorers from our association so I confer with them and see that they don't have it right. We have radio and a home book but no one from the visiting team. We come up with the score to be 11 to 11 which I know is off a little but can I use radio? We go with the official book and play on. When I go to report my next foul low and behold here is the asst. coach from the home team sitting at the table next to the timer. I don't think this is a very good idea so I ask him to leave and he refuses in a nice way and tells me to talk to the head coach because he told him to sit there. I ask the head coach to remove him from the table and the answer I get is "show me in the book where it says he can't sit there" Well I don't have any snickers and I knew it would be a while because I don't carry my books and wasn't going to show him anyway. Needless to say I wasn't going to get any help there so I used a bench tech on the asst. coach which was an inderect on the head coach and loss of the coaches box. Was I correct in doing this or what would you have done in this situation. If the person was a score keeper I probably would not care but this was an asst. coach.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 03:43pm
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I dont have my books so I cannot quote chapter and verse--
The assistant coach has no business at the scorers table. If you asked the head coach and explained the consequences. They deserve the T. I'd toss one there. I have chased away assistants because they thought the scorer was messing up. ITs bd enough when they mess up, they dont need a coach harassing them. If the coach wants to have a book at the table he can do that... that's it! If you have problems with the official book you need to go with it, ( I have used the non-official to verify or find out where the issue might be) ... The scoreboard operator usually keeps the point independently so you can use this... I'd be hesitant to use radio books and definitely not in the book. By rule official book only... as I said use the othe one to fgure out where the problem ocuured or where it might be off... I have designated visiting book as official before...

Unfortunately...this is one where you learn how important game mgt and knowing what's going on up on the scoreboard is important. everytime down the floor, we should have an idea of score and time... if a basket is made the scoreboard should reflect it...
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 03:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ed Maeder
We go with the official book and play on.
Right call. Good decision.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ed Maeder
I ask the head coach to remove him from the table and the answer I get is "show me in the book where it says he can't sit there" ...I used a bench tech on the asst. coach which was an inderect on the head coach and loss of the coaches box.
Coulda whacked the coach directly for being a [email protected]$$. I'm suprised that a varsity coach would be that clueless. He should be thankful for the indirect. Nevertheless I guess it accomplished the same thing. I'm guessing the assistant coach found a seat on the bench?
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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 04:05pm
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If you really want to know your legal autority over this situation, you can construct through several rules.

Rule 4
SECTION 34 PLAYERS/BENCH PERSONNEL/SUBSTITUTES/TEAM MEMBERS
ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s).

So the assistant is officially bench personnel, and you can govern his actions according to the rule book.

Rule 10 Fouls and Penalties
SECTION 5 COACHES' RULE
ART. 2 . . . The head coach and assistant coach(es) must remain seated on the bench at all times while the clock is running or is stopped except to:
a. Confer with bench personnel and players within the confines of the bench area during a charged time-out or the intermission between quarters and extra periods.
b. Attend an injured player when beckoned onto the court by an official.
c. Rise in front of their seat to spontaneously react to an outstanding play by a member of their team or to acknowledge a replaced player(s), but must immediately return to their seat. (See 1-13 – coaching box)

The only exception to this is the coaching box rule that is implemented in most states. If your state has the box, the head coach may use it (which wouldn't get him near the table) and assistants must remain on the bench.

Penalty is a technical to the coach violating the rule and an indirect to the head coach (if he is not the violator).
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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 04:18pm
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Hawks Coach has the correct reference.

Asst. coaches are required to sit on the bench.

Whether he's standing at the bench or sitting at the scorer's table, he's in violation of the Coaches Rule.

If he wouldn't move, you were right to stick him.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 04:26pm
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Lightbulb

I would have given the choice to allow him to remain there for the rest of the game, or to be an assistant coach. Cannot wear both hats.
mick


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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 04:35pm
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Thanks for the help folks. These were the references I used and felt good about my decision, but always good to ask for feedback. This game was the game from hell and ended with the score of 88 to 86 home team winning. It was quite a learning experenice from jump to final horn. Thanks again.

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jan 25th, 2004 at 08:12 PM]
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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 05:48pm
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Use casebook plays 10.5SitD and 10.5SitE for the justification for the T.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 06:02pm
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The ideal situation is having the home and visiting scorers sitting side by side so they can compare notes as the game goes on.

Scorers can be a problem. When I started out many years ago I had just done a JV game and my partner and I were watching the varsity game from the bleachers. In the 2nd quarter, the visiting coach suddenly walks to the scorer's table and grabs the home scorer by the tie and attempts to pull him across the table! Seems the scorer had been bad-mouthing the visiting team's subs as they reported to the scorer. When I was coaching, I had a similar situation with a scorer but I was a bit more diplomatic. Table personnel have to be reminded sometimes that they are neutral.
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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 06:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ed Maeder
Was I correct in doing this or what would you have done in this situation. If the person was a score keeper I probably would not care but this was an asst. coach.
I'm not quite following this. The table couldn't keep up with the scoring (wha?). The visiting coach sent his assistant at the table, presumably to keep an eye on the official scorekeeper. If there was not a representative from the visiting team at the table already I would have welcomed someone to help the poor guy who was obviously overwhelmed by his official responsibilities. If there was someone from the visiting team already at the table I would have simply explained to the coach he gets only 1 person at the table, he can decide who it is.

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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 09:08pm
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I think there may be a mis-understanding here. If the home and or visiting team wanted a score keeper at the table at the begining of the game there would have been no problem, but this was in the middle of the 1st quarter after a scorers mistake and was the number 2 coach from the bench not a scorer and he was not there to help but to confuse things. There was already 3 people at the table scorer,timer, and one off duty scorer to assist them. The table is only big enough for 3 and he was number 4.

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jan 25th, 2004 at 08:22 PM]
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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 09:13pm
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Dan, check again. It was the home team for whom Batman sent Robin to sit at the table.

As for the coach asking for a rule reference. You don't need to. I don't have to quote the traveling rule when I blow the whistle, and I sure as heck don't have to quote the rule for him when I "whack" Robin for violating the bench decorum rule. He can look it up when he gets his rule book.
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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 09:27pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ed Maeder
I think there may be a mis-understanding here. If the home and or visiting team wanted a score keeper at the table at the begining of the game there would have been no problem, but this was in the middle of the 1st quarter after a scorers mistake and was the number 2 coach from the bench not a scorer and he was not there to help but to confuse things. There was already 3 people at the table scorer,timer, and one off duty scorer to assist them. The table is only big enough for 3 and he was number 4.

[Edited by Ed Maeder on Jan 25th, 2004 at 08:22 PM]
Doesn't matter to me. If the guy is no longer the assistant coach that night, he can sit there if that is what they choose. No penalty.
mick
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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 09:58pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Ed Maeder
I think there may be a mis-understanding here. If the home and or visiting team wanted a score keeper at the table at the begining of the game there would have been no problem, but this was in the middle of the 1st quarter after a scorers mistake and was the number 2 coach from the bench not a scorer and he was not there to help but to confuse things. There was already 3 people at the table scorer,timer, and one off duty scorer to assist them. The table is only big enough for 3 and he was number 4.

Doesn't matter to me. If the guy is no longer the assistant coach that night, he can sit there if that is what they choose. No penalty.

I don't agree with that at all. It's up to the home team to supply the official scorer. They did that in this sitch. Now the home team wants someone else to keep an eye on the scorer that they supplied? The official scorer is the R's concern after the game starts, and nobody elses'. And now the home team wants to do this by using an assistant coach who'd already started the game on the bench? That's a direct contravention of R10-5-2? Has anybody got a rule cite that would nullify R10-5-2 in this sitch? I sure can't think of one.
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Old Sun Jan 25, 2004, 10:57pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Ed Maeder
I think there may be a mis-understanding here. If the home and or visiting team wanted a score keeper at the table at the begining of the game there would have been no problem, but this was in the middle of the 1st quarter after a scorers mistake and was the number 2 coach from the bench not a scorer and he was not there to help but to confuse things. There was already 3 people at the table scorer,timer, and one off duty scorer to assist them. The table is only big enough for 3 and he was number 4.

Doesn't matter to me. If the guy is no longer the assistant coach that night, he can sit there if that is what they choose. No penalty.

I don't agree with that at all. It's up to the home team to supply the official scorer. They did that in this sitch. Now the home team wants someone else to keep an eye on the scorer that they supplied? The official scorer is the R's concern after the game starts, and nobody elses'. And now the home team wants to do this by using an assistant coach who'd already started the game on the bench? That's a direct contravention of R10-5-2? Has anybody got a rule cite that would nullify R10-5-2 in this sitch? I sure can't think of one.
If it's gonna make the game better with no more screw ups, it is well worth the additional person and the loss of an assistant coach.
mick
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