Little League Warning/Tech??

[Luv4Asian8]

Situation: 3rd/4th graders; had great pregame with coaches and captains, including stressing sportsmanship. We went into Triple Overtime, which is a Sudden Death situation in this little league.

While in 3OT, A1 & B1 rebound and I call for a jumpball, then "let it go!" A1 let's go, but B1 "strongly snatches" the ball, then "mugs" A1. I give a stern warning to B1 for unsportsmanlike conduct so loud that the entire gym could hear it.

The reason I gave just a warning instead of an automatic technical for taunting/unspt.cond. (no one was hurt, etc)was because it was a really exciting game: benches into it, crowd into it, we were into it, etc. and I didnt think the contest should be ended because of a technical foul. Team A didn't dispute it, even though I know they had every right to do so.

Did I do the right thing? What would you do?


BTW, Team A won by FT b/c of a shooting foul.

[oc]

Originally posted by Luv4Asian8
then "mugs" A1.

Not sure. Explain this more: "mugs" A1.

[RecRef]

Why in the world does the league have overtimes in the first place? You are talking about a bunch of 8 and 9 year olds here. How long are the regular quarters and the overtime periods? My bet would be that B1 and a lot of other kids were mighty cranky by the time the 3 rd OT rolled around. For kids that age the game should end in a tie.

Now to your question, what do you mean by “mug?” Did B1 put his hands on A1? Did he push A1 when the ball was dead? If there was any physical action by B1 you must call a T. Speaking as a parent of 3 boys, 20, 26, and 29, and a person who has been involved in running a rec league since ’91 I think you did B1, the league and every player in it, a disservice by not T-ing him up if he put his hands on A1. And what are you telling A1 in all of this? Sorry kid, you got mugged but poor B1 is cranky so it is OK.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by RecRef
Why in the world does the league have overtimes in the first place? You are talking about a bunch of 8 and 9 year olds here. How long are the regular quarters and the overtime periods? My bet would be that B1 and a lot of other kids were mighty cranky by the time the 3 rd OT rolled around. For kids that age the game should end in a tie.

You know the parents would never allow that. Every time Johnny takes the floor, dad is reliving his fantasy of playing in the final four. And mom, of course, is counting on the scholarship money to send him to a good school. This is far too serious a situation to simply let it end in a tie!

[Luv4Asian8]

Originally posted by oc
Not sure. Explain this more: "mugs" A1.

Originally posted by RecRef
How long are the regular quarters and the overtime periods? My bet would be that B1 and a lot of other kids were mighty cranky by the time the 3 rd OT rolled around. For kids that age the game should end in a tie.

Now to your question, what do you mean by “mug?” Did B1 put his hands on A1? Did he push A1 when the ball was dead? If there was any physical action by B1 you must call a T...I think you did B1, the league and every player in it, a disservice by not T-ing him up if he put his hands on A1. And what are you telling A1 in all of this? Sorry kid, you got mugged but poor B1 is cranky so it is OK.

5 regulation periods, 8min running clock; 1OT 2min running clock; 2OT 1min running clock; 3OT Sudden Death.

By "mug" I meant a "haha-neener-neener" face (taunting), but I was more concerned of the body language that came along with it, the snatching, even though I told them to let go for their own safety. Otherwise, if A1 would have still held on to the ball, he would have been judo-dropped by a snatch by B1 like that. While there was not any contact, that was very unsportsmanlike.

While I respect your comment, RR, that was not the message I sent to B1 or anyone else in the gym. But you might be right, maybe I should have T'ed him up. Maybe I did have a bad judgment call, but again, I didn't want the game to be decided by an official, but rather the players that worked hard to tie it up in the first place. Chalk it up to experience and do better next time.

BTW, was congratulated by league president and other officials who were there for calling an exciting game. Asked her feedback about the situation and received, "would have done the same."

[Smitty]

Sounds like kids being kids to me. No harm, no foul. Good no call.

[RecRef]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luv4Asian8
[B]

Originally posted by oc
Not sure. Explain this more: "mugs" A1.
i]Originally posted by RecRef [/i]



5 regulation periods, 8min running clock; 1OT 2min running clock; 2OT 1min running clock; 3OT Sudden Death.

By "mug" I meant a "haha-neener-neener" face (taunting), but I was more concerned of the body language that came along with it, the snatching, even though I told them to let go for their own safety. Otherwise, if A1 would have still held on to the ball, he would have been judo-dropped by a snatch by B1 like that. While there was not any contact, that was very unsportsmanlike.

While I respect your comment, RR, that was not the message I sent to B1 or anyone else in the gym. But you might be right, maybe I should have T'ed him up. Maybe I did have a bad judgment call, but again, I didn't want the game to be decided by an official, but rather the players that worked hard to tie it up in the first place. Chalk it up to experience and do better next time.

BTW, was congratulated by league president and other officials who were there for calling an exciting game. Asked her feedback about the situation and received, "would have done the same."

IMHO - Even with a running clock that is too much game time for little kids.

Don’t get me wrong; I don’t think that you handled it poorly since there was no contact. What you saw is a common form of playground behavior. I’d also let it pass with an admonishment.

An old ref once told me that when you call a jump ball you should all but get directly into the face of the players when making the call. This takes the wind out of most tussles.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by RecRef
Why in the world does the league have overtimes in the first place? You are talking about a bunch of 8 and 9 year olds here. How long are the regular quarters and the overtime periods? My bet would be that B1 and a lot of other kids were mighty cranky by the time the 3 rd OT rolled around. For kids that age the game should end in a tie.

Minor nit...several of the kids might be 10...several kids turn 10 in the 4th grade.

I have no problem with OT's at this age. I think that a little tension is good for kids to experience if done right. They can learn a lot of things under the right guidance. Also, some leagues I've done in the past have a tie after 1 or 2 OT's so it doesn't go on forever.

I had one, several years ago, that went to OT at a score of 8 to 8. No one scored in the OT. Schedule was backed up and both coaches suggested/agreed to end with a tie at that point. Fine with me.

Length of quarter may not matter either. It depends on how many kids are on a squad and if they have a participation rule (which I agree with at that age). If they have less than 10 players, I'd hope they used 6 minute quarters. If much more than 10 players, they could play 8 minute quarters without a problem. Overtimes should be no more than 3 minutes.

[Snake~eyes]

I think a little OT is good, maybe not at that early age but atleast in middle school. Kids do need to learn that theres no such thing as a tie in real life. Boss isn't going to tell you that you tied with another employee and you get to share the raise. Blah! Also what's the deal with every kid getting a trophy? I have a problem with that too, a little ribbon or somthing is okay but a trophy? Trophies are for winners.

Okay I'm done now.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Luv4Asian8
Situation: 3rd/4th graders; had great pregame with coaches and captains, including stressing sportsmanship. We went into Triple Overtime, which is a Sudden Death situation in this little league.

While in 3OT, A1 & B1 rebound and I call for a jumpball, then "let it go!" A1 let's go, but B1 "strongly snatches" the ball, then "mugs" A1. I give a stern warning to B1 for unsportsmanlike conduct so loud that the entire gym could hear it.

The reason I gave just a warning instead of an automatic technical for taunting/unspt.cond. (no one was hurt, etc)was because it was a really exciting game: benches into it, crowd into it, we were into it, etc. and I didnt think the contest should be ended because of a technical foul. Team A didn't dispute it, even though I know they had every right to do so.

Did I do the right thing? What would you do?


BTW, Team A won by FT b/c of a shooting foul.

When you have a tie-up in that situation it is a good idea to close in whistle blaring.The kids will react to the whistle hurting their ears and turn away and will stop wrestling for the ball.

To answer your question,I'll throw one back at you.Would you have called it in the first period? Remember at that age they are learning what they can and can't do,so we always need to send the right message,so if you would have called it in the 1st,you need to in OT.

[Andy]

First of all, blindzebra is right on the money: how would you have called the same situation halfway through the first quarter? Call it the same in OT.

I also wanted to comment on this statement you made:

Originally posted by Luv4Asian8
I didn't want the game to be decided by an official, but rather the players that worked hard...

Your call, as an official, does not "decide the game".

We often hear "let the players decide the game" in these types of situations. I say that if a B1 chooses to foul A1 late in a close game, the players have decided the game. It's your job as the official, to call the game based on the player's actions. It goes back to being consistant throughout the game. If it's a foul five seconds into the game, it's a foul with five seconds left in the game, too!

[SteveF]

Originally posted by Andy
First of all, blindzebra is right on the money: how would you have called the same situation halfway through the first quarter? Call it the same in OT.

I also wanted to comment on this statement you made:

Your call, as an official, does not "decide the game".

We often hear "let the players decide the game" in these types of situations. I say that if a B1 chooses to foul A1 late in a close game, the players have decided the game. It's your job as the official, to call the game based on the player's actions. It goes back to being consistant throughout the game. If it's a foul five seconds into the game, it's a foul with five seconds left in the game, too!

Ditto Andy!!!

We only call what the players decide they want to do. If that is a technical or intentional foul in a close game so be it. They did it I just called it. Not my fault.

[Hawks Coach]

You may call something in the first period as a matter of preventative officiating (sending a message) that you would never call in overtime unless the situation clearly warranted it. There are cases where you would differentiate, and with good reason. for example, you probably don't break out a borderline handcheck or carry in overtime if you haven't called it that way the whole game.

And given that "mug" as stated in the initial sitch actually means taunt (as restated later) in some fashion (not clear here), it is not clear that this is a T depending on what was done. And if it is borderline and you are overtime, it's time to step in and put a stop to things but not necessarily where you want to hit someone with a T.