Coach: "The Fouls are 7-2!"

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
jrut
You have never heard me say this and you never will. My only point about responding in kind to this type of statement is you are sinking to the level of the person that makes it, rather than just reffing the game.

I am fine if you feel an immediate T is warranted. I just think that if you aren't going to T, make a more neutral response that does not bring your character into the conversation. YOU control the direction of the discussion, if there is one, not the jerk that makes this comment. He has inplied that you have not been fair, don't give any credence to this type of implication by making the statement explicit.

Questioning the integrity of me or my partner's is an automatic T for me. I just want to make sure that is not what the coach is doing, and let them know just like anything else, trying to do so is totally unacceptable. It is not lowering ourselves to make a "preventative" comment to a coach who is going past what is acceptable. First of all you cannot question our judgment to begin with. I have no problem with you getting upset about whether I should have called a block, but to say the foul count is out of wack for some reason (when we are not even considering the style of play involved), then we have a problem. Because if they say 7-2 and 8-2 and 9-2, then the next comment might be, "you are not calling anything for our team, you must be from here." Then I have to stick you. So I think it is better to nip this crap in the bud before the coach starts making further comments.

Peace

[Ref3]

We have a coach that would stand up and yell when he would have 7 fouls and the visitors would have 2..."How can the fouls be 7 to 2 on my home court?!" My reaction -- he can read the scoreboard and is paying attention.

The game always dictates the foul count. An aggressive team vs. a passive team usually tends to have a lopsided foul count. Not much you can do.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by stripes
Also for those that think this leads to a path with an "unwarranted" T at the end, he started the conversation and it has to do with me being a cheater. How is that unwarranted?

In this case, our goal should be to resolve the situation, or end the conversation. Stop sign, that's enough, whatever it takes.

"The foul count is 7-2" is not enough for a T. So how can you justify T'ing a coach after baiting him?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

It takes TWO to fight.

The only thing you can do without taking the next step toward really getting that fight going is to acknowledge the coach. Don't say anything; look him/her in the eye and shake your head yes; and run on by.

Anything else, anything smartasslike, is only going to exacerbate the issue. Don't be the second man into the fight.

Don't let this be an issue of your integrity/credibility. You, personally determine those qualities about yourself and it is only when you respond to the coach's goad that you endanger your integrity or credibility. Don't engage and you will maintain your integrity.

If the coach really wants to hound you about something then you must engage. Non-emotional; you stepped over the line and the penalty is T-bone. I can't imagine that occurring for questioning the foul count. It would have to be quite severe for that topic.

Stupid is as stupid does... and sometimes we're stupid... we engage. Done it myself. Two seconds of ignoring and running away would have solved the problem ... for the remainder of the game. Hold-on. Concentrate on the play and keep going.

just my quarter. Tony

[stripes]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

In this case, our goal should be to resolve the situation, or end the conversation. Stop sign, that's enough, whatever it takes.

"The foul count is 7-2" is not enough for a T. So how can you justify T'ing a coach after baiting him?

Read the whole post. I never said that saying the foul cout is whatever is justification for a T. I said that if a coach starts the coversation, he put himself on the path that leads to a T. I don't believe we are baiting the coach by continuing a conversation that is really about him saying that we are cheating for the other team, especially if he starts the conversation.

I agree that we should stop the conversation if at all possible, but some coaches won't let it go. Make them call you a cheater (that is what they are implying anyway), give them the T and be done with it. Totally justified.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by stripes


Read the whole post. I never said that saying the foul cout is whatever is justification for a T. I said that if a coach starts the coversation, he put himself on the path that leads to a T. I don't believe we are baiting the coach by continuing a conversation that is really about him saying that we are cheating for the other team, especially if he starts the conversation.

I agree that we should stop the conversation if at all possible, but some coaches won't let it go. Make them call you a cheater (that is what they are implying anyway), give them the T and be done with it. Totally justified.

I totally agree with you on this. We are not starting anything by commenting on what the coach said. They are the one that are trying to call us out and if we allow that to happen or to continue, what else will they call us? If you do not want me to react, do not call me a "cheater." Just because you did not use that word, what else could you be implying? Again, they do not say anything to us when 7-2 is in their favor do they? So why all the crap when it is not? Our commenting is just trying to give them a chance to think about what they are saying. If they really think about it, they might just back off. But I do not want the "7-2" comments to go on all night when it is clear I am not purposely doing anything to make that happen. I have usually past 20 schools to get to that one, and if that team is on the road, I did not ask to do a game in most cases with them there. I officiate, like many where I am asked to go. I have no vendetta to fullfill. So telling me the foul count is out of line in my opinion.

A short story. I did a Div. 3 college game about 2 years ago at a school in Indiana. The visiting team was from Florida. Come to find out the coach and AD had ties to this particular school they were playing in Indiana and the Chicago area. The assignor is from a Chicago suburb, both my partners are from Chicago area as well. We all drove together which was about a 2 hour drive to this school. So neither the officials or assignor had anything directly to do with this school in Indiana at all. In the first half, the Florida coach made this comment to me when the foul count was not in his favor. "I am from Indiana too." I said right back to him, "I am not from Indiana." Let me ask you this, what do you think he was implying? Well in the second half, the script completely flipped. The Florida team started out playing more aggressive and the fouls pretty much flipped in the other way. Now the Florida team had less fouls called on them and the Indiana team was getting called for just about everything because they were getting completely out hustled. The Indiana coach did not say another word the entire night after our little conversation. And considering how things turned out, we could not have been screwing him at all. But it my comments made him think and he had to at least pause and think about what I said to him. The same goes when a coach is screaming the foul count and we comment.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

Okay, two things.

First, READ MY POST carefully (sorry, that comment always irritates me). I didn't say that YOU said the comment alone was worth a T. I stated that IF the comment alone isn't a T, how can we justify a T a short time later because we used the initial comment to bait him into some kind of argument?

Second, the 7-2 comment is only a question against integrity if we make it that way. Honestly, for me, if a coach says the fouls are 7-2, I NEVER think he's accusing me of cheating - I just think that he just feels we're missing too many fouls on the other team. Coach, of course, is full of it, and has no idea what they're talking about

My beef here is the idea that instead of trying to diffuse the situation, officials become confrontational - like the "are you accusing me of cheating" response. All of a sudden it's "we-them", and the chances of a coach escalating to the point where we have no choice but to T him increase dramatically. And MY point is this: we may be just as responsible for the situation as he is.

Granted, "Stop fouling" isn't the greatest either, but neither is it to be used without discretion (like all the stuff we say, right?), or without the right context. Would I say it to a coach who's really steamed? No way. If the "7-2" remark was more even keel? Maybe. More likely, I'd try to find a different way to make it go away.

Rut, if a coach is outright accusing you of cheating, I agree, it's wrong, and if he's really making a public display of it, my goodness, W-H-A-C-K away. But I don't think that's the same as the scenario that originally started this thread.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

Rut, if a coach is outright accusing you of cheating, I agree, it's wrong, and if he's really making a public display of it, my goodness, W-H-A-C-K away. But I don't think that's the same as the scenario that originally started this thread.

I think that saying the what the foul total is, to me is very much a suggestion of cheating. Just because they do not say "cheater," does not make their comments any less right. I do not think anyone would call anyone "confrontational" if we told a coach to get back into the box or to giving them the hand (stop sign) when we talk to them. We have the right and should address bad behavior. Or if we comment on a call we made when they are in our ear, I really do not see anyone saying that makes us confrontational. I am not asking those to just agree, but I think to try to make it into an issue that the official has no right to say anything is a stretch. Many times the coach is not just commenting, he might be asking a question while saying what the foul total is. Most of the time they are talking directly to me or my partners when they make those comments. What else are we suppose to say to them? If they are speaking direcly at us, why not say something?

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

Honestly, for me, if a coach says the fouls are 7-2, I NEVER think he's accusing me of cheating - I just think that he just feels we're missing too many fouls on the other team.

Without doubt, you certainly can be classified as an optimist, when it comes to officiating.

I'm a pessimist when it comes to comments like this.

[Hawks Coach]

Actually, I agree with canuckrefguy. Most coaches don't think your cheating, they believe that somehow the calls are just going against them for no apparent reason. You would not believe how many coaches I talk to that explain a loss by saying every call down the stretch went against them. And they don't think the ref cheated, they just think the ref somehow only missed calls when his player got fouled or made questionable foul calls when his player played good defense.

So yes, do believe that you change the nature of a conversation by bringing cheating up. Realize I am not asking you to be silent, I am just saying that there are many ways you can shut this kind of comment down without putting your personal integrity or a perceived slight to it into explicit question, when the question has been indirect at best until you bring it up explicitly.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

So yes, do believe that you change the nature of a conversation by bringing cheating up. Realize I am not asking you to be silent, I am just saying that there are many ways you can shut this kind of comment down without putting your personal integrity or a perceived slight to it into explicit question, when the question has been indirect at best until you bring it up explicitly.

I do not care what the nature of the conversation is. You do not want me to accuse you of something, keep your mouth shut about that issue. And I have never had a problem with making my point and getting them to shut up. I do not care what they think, I think a lot of things and never say them. So I suggest they do the same. Again, say what I call is bad. Say that I was not in position. But do not try to suggest (because it is more about who hears you as well) the foul count is a result of something else. That is what that comment does. And yes, I will address it.

Peace

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
So yes, do believe that you change the nature of a conversation by bringing cheating up. Realize I am not asking you to be silent, I am just saying that there are many ways you can shut this kind of comment down without putting your personal integrity or a perceived slight to it into explicit question, when the question has been indirect at best until you bring it up explicitly.

Thanks, coach (boy feels nice to say that and really mean it ), couldn't have said it better myself.

It's one thing for coaches to cross the line, it's another thing if we push them there.

[Hawks Coach]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

And I have never had a problem with making my point and getting them to shut up. I do not care what they think, I think a lot of things and never say them.

This speaks volumes - it seems this is all about you. I am recommending a less egocentric approach. You seem to believe that it is important that you make a point. I think you need not lower yourself to making points. It is in the nature of coaching to try to make points. We should make points to players rather than refs, but many obviously do not make this distinction. and we all find a need from time to time, as partisans in a contest, to make points.

Refs are not there to be partisan members of a discussion. Your comments are about defending your honor, which makes you a less than neutral member of this conversation. This distinction that I am making either escapes you or you find to be irrelevant. We will obviously disagree on this.

And by the way, if you don't always say everything that you think, then exercise that discretion in this case and don't tell them that you think they suggested you were cheating. that is perfectly in line with how you say you live your life.

But do not try to suggest (because it is more about who hears you as well) the foul count is a result of something else. That is what that comment does. And yes, I will address it.

The first part of this indicates a concern with your image. Again, the primary listeners are the home crowd and the participants. I don't think the home crowd thinks you are homering them, and I don't think you can change an opinion of the coaches and players on the visiting team if they believe they are getting homered. But usually, nobody thinks you are cheating, they think you are missing things. And usually they have been telling you about that all along and your calls haven't changed, with the result that they now percieve the foul count to be a factor of all the calls you screwed up.

Go ahead and raise the issue of cheating. But do not fail to understand that this is an issue that you have constructed in your mind and you are now constructing in the mind of everyone who hears your comment. And if they didn't think that you were cheating when they made the comment, your response may sound to the listener like maybe they should have considered this possibility. The listener may simply think that the only reason you mentioned cheating when they never did is that cheating is actually occurring. That's the final risk you take in steering the conversation into places that it has on;ly previously been in your mind.

[Dan_ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach

Originally posted by JRutledge

This speaks volumes - it seems this is all about you. I am recommending a less egocentric approach. You seem to believe that it is important that you make a point. I think you need not lower yourself to making points.

Coach, I don't know in what context Rut brought this up but I agree with it 100%. Sometimes the goal is to just get the coach to shut up so you can concentrate on the game. Speaking for myself, I never care one way or the other what the coach thinks. I just don't want him ruining my game (yeah yeah I know it's the kids game I need to be less egocentric it's not about me....but it is about me because when the game goes in the toilet no one is going to call you and demand an explanation. )

[Hawks Coach]

Dan
Do you have to tell the coach that you think he called you a cheater in order to shut him up? Mind you I never suggested you shouldn't shut him up - I clearly have argued you should. We are only discussing what words you use and don't use, and what you bring into the conversation. I know refs can shut coaches up without ever mentioning themselves. Mission accomplished.