Coach: "The Fouls are 7-2!"

Larks · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 03:51pm

This is a spin off of the one liner thread...I had a FR and JV coach Friday night letting me know the foul count was 8-4 and 7-2 respectively. I actually havent heard this line too many times this year and my usual reaction to it is no reaction. I have heard guys that will challenge the coach if the opportunity presents itself by saying something along the lines of "Are you questioning my integrity?" or "Are you accusing me of cheating?". My knee jerk reaction to those lines are they seem to send the interaction down a potential path of no return.

Back to Friday, these two math wizards kept at it and finally in the JV game I was table side in lead, two man. I had heard it one too many times and finally replied "Stop fouling". Somehow this worked but I dont know how ideal it is as an answer to Mr. Foulcounterton.

Old guys...how do you handle?

Larks
VIT

[Edited by Larks on Jan 19th, 2004 at 03:02 PM]

JRutledge · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Larks
"Are you questioning my integrity?"

I used to make that comment and they would just shut up after that or apologize for suggesting such a thing. But now I just say, "OK" and go right back to what I was doing. Because I am not going to change what I am calling because the foul differential is different. One team might be playing a full court man to man defense and the other team is playing a sagging zone. One team is attacking the basket, the other team is settling for 3 pointers. One team might have talent, the other team does not. You cannot just even it up or worry about that because they complain. Because it is funny you never hear them complain when they only have 2 and the other team has 10.

Peace

BBall_Junkie · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 04:08pm

Although I am not an old guy, I will throw my two cents in. If the coach just mentions it, I might not say anything in return. He may just want you to be aware of the foul count to try and gain an "edge" as some officials may get worried about it and call something that they might normally pass on. Doesn't work on me but....

If the coach is actually making an issue of it and approaches the situation with some degree of professionlaism, I might respond you are right coach but you are pressing and playing man to man and they are playing a zone and you are shooting jumpers (for example).

Lastly if the coach is being a jacka$$ about it and implying that we are not being fair, I will tell him that the count "is what it is and we are calling the game as we see it." End of conversation, if he persists with it he may end up with a T because the implication is the we are cheating. I won't have that.

The key to handling a lopsided foul count is to make sure that you don't miss one on the team that has the lower count. I am not advocating looking for something to call or making something up, however if there is an actual foul that creates an advantage for the other team and you miss it or pass on it the coach will give it to you and you don't have any ground to stand on to defend yourself

For what its worth....

Dan_ref · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 04:51pm

If I'm in a good mood: "OK coach."
If I'm not in a good mood: "That's a coaching issue, maybe talk to your players about it."

DJ · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 04:52pm

What am I going to say about a lopsided foul count? Nothing unless, he has too many other things he doesn't like about my officiating or it continues after each foul is called. If it is chronic I will take care of it early and try to give a warning to the coach in many variety of ways depending on the situation. However if I give one warning the next time will always result in the penalty(T) because I will only warn one time and only if given the opportunity to warn. Sometimes there is no opportunity to warn and if so, well that's the way it is. I give so few technicals that I consider it to be a priviledge to get one from me although no one has ever thanked me for giving them one!! I will always work with a coach if he is willing to work with me!

DJ · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 04:55pm

"many variety" ain't good grammar!!! Please work through my handicap!!

nine01c · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 05:38pm

The other day I heard my partner's response to the lopsided foul complaint: "We don't count 'em, we just call 'em."
It worked to quiet that particular coach (in that particular game).

oc · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 06:54pm

In a recent game an experienced ref in our association who I am supposed to be nice to if I want to move up warned me and our other partner (3 man) that the fouls were getting lopsided and we need to stop calling tickey-tack fouls. He may have had a point about some of the foul calls not being great as I am still working on advantage/disadvantage but the count at the time was 7-3. I don't consider 7-3 lopsided. I know we aren't supposed to get to worried about lopsided foul counts but I'll admit I do if it gets to 7-0 or 10-1 but not 7-3. --But I was a good boy and nodded my head.

Later he brought it up again between the JV and V game. I nodded my head-keeping my reservations to myself. The V game was going great and I was starting to get into a zone when it all fell apart in on one play. We had been reminded a couple times to ignore the small stuff by Mr. Big time and I was. Play right in front of me: A1 gets contact from B1 and B2 going to the hoop and actually loses the ball before recovering and putting up a shot-missed rebound over into the senior refs zone and he calles a foul on the put back. Coach A gets all over me for no calling the first shot. Now the lost ball was a clean swipe by B1 and I had the best angle-- good no call. The shot a second later after A1 recovered the ball might very well have been a bad no call by me-and I probably would have called it earlier but been trying to ignore some contact.

Me to Coach: "I didn't see anything, but will watch for it."

Coach: "Sure you did, I saw it from here"

I ignore the comment and go to administer the ensuing free throw. Before I can my senior partner says "Tighten it up, Rich" Loud enough for players and Coach A to here.---I was pissed! Even if i did kick the call chew me out later or say the same thing on the side. I got all credability pulled from me on that one play.

Any advice on what if anything I should have said to my P?

FYI-After the game I asked what to do when the count is 7-3 but one team is doing all the pressing and is much more aggressive. I didn't get a very good answer.

Bart Tyson · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 07:28pm

oc, just hang in there and pay your dues. Things will get better.

BigJoe · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 07:28pm

I used to work with a partner when I started who had been around for years. He was always concerned about the foul count on both the team and the players. I believe that a good official calls each play on its own merits. You should call the play the same no matter what the game situation. I heard a new one from a coach thursday night that I'm trying to figure out. He said, "just because we're more aggressive, doesn't mean that we foul more!" I would have agreed if his aggressive players had any control. Don't worry about the team fouls. If the coach wants to get fewer fouls he should tell his team not to foul. But its easier to blame the officials.

JRutledge · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 07:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by oc

FYI-After the game I asked what to do when the count is 7-3 but one team is doing all the pressing and is much more aggressive. I didn't get a very good answer.

That says it all right there.

You need to ask other officials in the area about this guy. You might be surprised as to what they think about him.

Peace

nine01c · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 08:42pm

OC: I can understand your frustration. You are trying to be cooperative and follow "orders" from a BIG TIME GONNA GET ME MOVED UP ref. You actually alter your usual way of calling a game to such a degree that it gets you into trouble. THEN, after "brow beating" you into making these poor choices, he hangs you out to dry.
I can also understand avoiding every little ticky-tacky foul, but don't sell out under this pressure and be disgusted and disappointed in yourself. You are being required to disregard (pass on) fouls to "even things up." This all due to some power vet's big shot philosophy (a sure formula for loss of control and disaster). How can this possibly be molding you into a better official? Being true to yourself (and the game) may be more important than moving up in this guy's shadow (for lack of a better word).
The way he "manages" a game has resulted in your loss of respect for him, if you ever had any. Hang in there, work hard, and call your best game every time. It will pay off at the end of the day.

Hawks Coach · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 08:44pm

I've had it go both ways (foul deficit and foul surplus for our team), but for quite some time last year, we were doing a great job of putting the foul count in our favor. And it was an explicit goal to get to the line twice as much as our opponents. Simple matter of attacking the basket on every possession, blocking out well on rebounds on both ends, moving our feet on defense. It's amazing how good basketball has good results on the scoreboard, and not only with respect to the score.

Don't try to even the foul count, call the game evenly and the foul count will reflect how the game was played.

DownTownTonyBrown · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 09:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by oc
In a recent game an experienced ref in our association who I am supposed to be nice to if I want to move up ... Play right in front of me: A1 gets contact from B1 and B2 going to the hoop and actually loses the ball before recovering and putting up a shot-missed rebound over into the senior refs zone and he calles a foul on the put back.

We've all had the "oh no" situation to be immediately followed by an "oh my God" situation. It happens.

... senior partner says "Tighten it up, Rich" Loud enough for players and Coach A to here... I got all credability pulled from me on that one play.

No you didn't. He doesn't control your integrity and for damn sure don't give it up to him. Maintain your composure, your concentration, and thereby, your credibility.

Any advice on what if anything I should have said to my P?

[i] Nothing is the appropriate response - suck it up. However on this board we can suggest anything... how about. "You gonna tighten up your side too???? Then you're going to change the way we're calling this game???? Okay Chief! Tallyho!"

canuckrefguy · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 19, 2004, 09:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Larks
I had heard it one too many times and finally replied "Stop fouling". Somehow this worked but I dont know how ideal it is as an answer to Mr. Foulcounterton.

I've used that one a few times, it's always worked.

"Are you questioning my integrity" is really just setting the stage for an unnecessary T. What if he says "you bet"?