NCAA-W Interps

[bob jenkins]

A few days ago, I posted what I thought were interesting interps from NCAA-M.

Here's a similar list from the most recent NCAA-W interps:

1) Athletic training “pre-wrap.”
“Pre-wrap” may be worn as a head band as long as it is securely fastened or tied to
eliminate any slippage from the forehead and head.

2) WNBA/NBA logos.
These professional logos may not be worn on head bands or socks. This is against the
playing rules and is also an NCAA violation of endorsing a professional organization.

3) Disqualified player/free throw.
Play: Player B1 is disqualified for 5 fouls. Official A is getting the substitute.
Officials B and C do not realize that there is a DQ and that Official A is waiting for
the substitute (30 seconds is being timed). Officials B and C proceed to administer a
free throw while this is going on. B1 makes the free throw.
Ruling: This is a major error by the officials. The ball remains dead for the
substitution. The free throw will not count, get the substitution into the game and readminister
the free throw. This does not fall under correctable error, it is an error by
the officials and this is the only way to fix it.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
2) WNBA/NBA logos.
These professional logos may not be worn on head bands or socks. This is against the
playing rules and is also an NCAA violation of endorsing a professional organization.

Interesting. You can have the manufacturer's logo, but that's the only logo that's allowed. I see the NBA logo all the time and never thought twice about it, b/c the size was ok. Hmmmmm.

3) Disqualified player/free throw.
Play: Player B1 is disqualified for 5 fouls. Official A is getting the substitute.
Officials B and C do not realize that there is a DQ and that Official A is waiting for
the substitute (30 seconds is being timed). Officials B and C proceed to administer a
free throw while this is going on. B1 makes the free throw.
Ruling: This is a major error by the officials. The ball remains dead for the
substitution. The free throw will not count

This happened in a HS game in my area recently (not my game, fortunately). The officials (one of whom is a D1 men's official) counted the FT, got the sub in and then shot the remaining FT.

[ronny mulkey]

Chuck,

how would you handle this in a high school game?

Mulk

[ronny mulkey]

Bob or Chuck,

Did the Fed not address this in last year's or previous year's interp? And, was not their ruling different? Somthing to the effect; even though one official was still trying to get a sub in, an official put the ball in play and no official killed the play. Therefore, shot is good if made and not a do over if missed?

We had a big dawg women's official that ruled just like this year's women's interp, but it was 2 years ago. Then, I saw the then NFHS interp. I remember he and I talking about it at the time and we concluded that it was done incorrectly based on that interp.

Mulk

[ChuckElias]

Ronny, the FED rule (3-6) is also pretty specific that only a "manufacturer's logo/trademark" can be visible on the pants, compression shorts, headbands and/or sweatbands. There's no case play associated with the rule. But it sounds to me that you'd have to require the NBA logo not to be visible.

Anybody with other thoughts?

BTW, the NCAA rule is 3-6-1a.

[ChuckElias]

Or did you mean the FT before the DQ'd player was replaced? Duh.

I don't know of any case play that deals directly with this situation. I can see the merit in both ways of handling it. The kid took a merited FT, so you could say that was his FT -- made or missed -- and move on.

But that gets tricky if it's only a one-shot penalty. It makes more sense to say that the ball never became live and the official screwed up by allowing the shooter to have the ball. Disallow the basket if it's good. Get the sub in and then shoot the proper sequence for the FT(s).

I guess I go with (man, I hate to say this) the NCAAW interp.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Or did you mean the FT before the DQ'd player was replaced? Duh.

I don't know of any case play that deals directly with this situation.

How about FED rule 2-10-1(c)- Correctible Error- "Permitting a wrong player to attempt a free throw"?

[Dubby]

It doesn't sound like the wrong player attempted the free throw. It was the right player only at the wrong time.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

This happened in a HS game in my area recently (not my game, fortunately). The officials (one of whom is a D1 men's official) counted the FT, got the sub in and then shot the remaining FT. [/B]

I must confess that this happened in not one, but two of my games earlier this year.

We counted the throw, got in the sub, shot the next one.

Apparently, we were wrong.

[ronny mulkey]

Bob,

We had a rash of this same play 2 years ago in our group - about 3 in a 2 weeks period of time. It may not be so apparent for high school games because I think that I saw an interp (Fed) that treated the situation just like you did. Of course, it was either last year or the year before. First of all, do you remember that interp? Is there a way to check and see if it WAS or STILL is a Fed interp?

Mulk

[cgref]

If B1 committed his 5th foul, why was he shooting the free throw?

[ronny mulkey]

I am hoping that Bob meant A1 made the f. throw. Probably, the official administering the free throw did not know it was his 5th foul nor that his partner was trying to get a sub in.

When this play happens and you are lead, it may appear to you that the trail is only conversing with the coach. Or, maybe evrybody is lined up and you don't even glance at your partner. No reason to hold the game up, right? So you bounce the ball to the free thrower and the trail does not notice. As the ball is in flight everybody near the trail starts screaming "they are starting without you". Somebody has to tell the guy with the ball (administering official)that we have a DQ. Because of trouble we have had with this play in the past, we do this before we tell the coach that that is five on 24.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
I am hoping that Bob meant A1 made the f. throw. Probably, the official administering the free throw did not know it was his 5th foul nor that his partner was trying to get a sub in.

When this play happens and you are lead, it may appear to you that the trail is only conversing with the coach. Or, maybe evrybody is lined up and you don't even glance at your partner. No reason to hold the game up, right?

If that happens, you really are not doing your job. You should make eye contact with your partner before doing anything. Or at least take enough time to realize that is not the situation. But at the very least you should always get some kind of acknowledgement from your partner before getting in that situation.

Peace

[ronny mulkey]

I think this happens in 3 person more than in 2 person. The guys in our group have decided that the person that can really hurt you in this situation (administering official) is the last to be aware that there is a DQ situation. The lead is down there lining people up and making sure you have the right shooter. The horn is not blowing, the table has only held up 5 fingers to indicate the DQ. The C comes over and indicates 2 shots but does not mention that is 5 on 24. The lead thinks the C is ready so he bounces the ball. The C thinks the sub has taken place on his trip over if the Lead has bounced the ball. The trail is focusing on getting the sub in.

So, we make sure that the lead is aware. "you tell the coach that's five and i'll tell our partner".

But, the question remains, how are you going to handle if this happens in a high school game?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
I think this happens in 3 person more than in 2 person. The guys in our group have decided that the person that can really hurt you in this situation (administering official) is the last to be aware that there is a DQ situation.

I have never had that happen in a 3 person game. Not saying it cannot happen, but if you are not in a big hurry, you can avoid this very easily. Mainly because if you discuss "eye contact" in your games, if your partner is tending to the table, you do not give the ball to the shooter. Now, I have had this happen in a 2 person game. But I believe only once and it was my fault for not paying attention.

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
But, the question remains, how are you going to handle if this happens in a high school game?

The same way I am going to handle it in a college game. If we have made eye contact and the table does not tell us at all, and they have a revelation when the shooter has the ball, let the shooter finish his shot (especially on 1 of 2 shots). If the table blows the horn, I might take the ball out of his/her hand if I think the horn disrupted their routine. In both cases I will remove the DQ'd player and go right back to what we were doing. If there was a shot missed and rebounds and other shots are made without being told, you just remove them when you are informed. But I also think that the officials should be somewhat aware when a player has had 5 fouls. Just take a couple of seconds and ask if need be. Especially before shots. And now with the fancy scoreboards, you can know when they have 4 fouls.

Peace