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Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 12:20am
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Sorry for the long post.

Everyone please help me. As I have stated in the past I am a 3 year basketball official for middle school games. I am also reffing a recreational league for 7-8th grade boys.

I was told last week that no one was keeping track of fouls. I found this weird and stopped my game. I talked to the official on the other court next to me (the gym is divided into 2 halves) and he told me that if i thought the player had enough fouls then throw her out of the game. I asked him "what if i didnt know" he told me that it is my word against theirs; and referee's always win.

I have been dealing with this guy for 3 years now and the problem is that his father *(he is 19) is the league director for basketball. He basically thinks his stuff dont stink and he is the gift of god to basketball officiating.

He made my timer even cry; by yelling at her and telling her not to listen to me. (BTW I am only 17 years old). People actually fight over me to ref their games because they say i am one of the best.

I have thought up an idea to keep a card *(like soccer officials use) in my pocket and marking down/checking off the number of the offending player. 6 checks and they are gone. Same with team fouls. At least this will keep me honest.

BTW- No one is there/knows how to keep a scorebook and the coaches usually lie against their own team. Please Help
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Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 12:35am
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Find another rec league, Pat.
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Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 01:14am
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I agree with BktBallRef, you should probably find another rec league. I wouldn't advise keeping any sort of card, just don't start the game until you have an official book. Make sure both coaches are aware that that book is the official book and that the other team should have someone doing the book as well to sort out any discrepancies. If there is "cheating" that the refs can't be on top of, it is the visiting team's fault for not providing a book of their own. If you've got two books, go with whoever is the most competent. It's not hard to teach someone to do book and I advise you give them a couple of pointers before you start the game if you're not sure. Also, you shouldn't ever consult officials on another game, the two of you should figure out how to handle your problems on your own.

An interesting aside: I had a girls varsity game today decided by a single point. That point was missed in the first half by the scoreboard operator and we were able to bring both books together at the half and come to the right score. Always check the books.
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Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 01:45am
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Pat,
Even though they "want" you, think about finding another rec or middle school league to work. This rec league has the potential for real problems and it is doubtful that it is helping you improve your officiationg as much as you could by calling games elsewhere. While the lure of working these games where you are appreciated, it may not bring the most satisfaction and growth. If you stay I would not use a card as then you have become the scorkeeper.
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Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 01:46am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Find another rec league, Pat.
AMEN!!!

Peace
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Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 01:48am
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This is not a rec league, it is a PE class.
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Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 09:45am
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Quote:
Originally posted by PAT THE REF
Sorry for the long post.

I have thought up an idea to keep a card *(like soccer officials use) in my pocket and marking down/checking off the number of the offending player. 6 checks and they are gone.
In case you ignore the advice, it's a players 5th when they are DQ'd.

Mregor
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Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 09:59am
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Pat: You sound like a young man with ability, common sense and maturity. Seek out your local high school referee association (ask a HS athletic director). As soon as you turn 18, attend the classes and take the test. You wil get proper training and hopefully assignments for better rec leagues. A mentor can help you along the way. You will know soon enough if you want to move up to HS subvarsity, and perhaps higher levels as you get older and more experienced. Good luck (oh to be 18 again).
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 10:02am
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Quote:
Originally posted by PAT THE REF

I have thought up an idea to keep a card *(like soccer officials use) in my pocket and marking down/checking off the number of the offending player. 6 checks and they are gone. Same with team fouls. At least this will keep me honest.

BTW- No one is there/knows how to keep a scorebook and the coaches usually lie against their own team. Please Help
PAT THE REF,
I feel your pain.
I like your card/paper idea. Could you give it (and a pencil) to your timer and let the timer do the fouls?
Like Mregor said 5 fouls is usually the most a player may receive before being disqualified; I guess the NBA is the only league with 6.
By taking initiative, perhaps you can change the attitude in the league.
Hang in and hold on.
mick
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Old Sat Jan 10, 2004, 12:15pm
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Pat--

I think the first choice would be to switch leagues as others have recommended. If that's not possible right now, for whatever reason, you might think about getting a pal to come along with you and keep a more official book.

But with regard to the specific situation where you aren't sure how many fouls someone has, I think this could be a learning experience for you. At the high school level, we all try to keep some vague notion in our heads about which players are in "foul trouble". This is your chance to learn to do this. Especially in games where players know they aren't being tracked, there are going to be a lot more fouls. Practicing keeping it sorted out, keeping track of who's just playing rough in general, and who's honest and who's not, in a particular game, would be a good way to develop this sense. Have a friend keep a book, and check in from time to time to see how you're doing.

If you have any influence at all, you might talk to the league board about changing the rules. Not keeping track of personal fouls is a great way for players to develop very bad habits that will hurt their progress in hs and college.
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Old Sun Jan 11, 2004, 06:53pm
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Juulie,

Do you really care how many fouls a player has when you are on the court? I used to work with an official who would point out at halftime or during time-outs which players had three or four fouls and to admonish me not to hand these players a "cheap" foul. In my feeble mind, I think it is the players' and the coaches problem to see that the player doesn't pick up that fifth foul. If we start basing our calls on how many fouls a player has on them, we are in big trouble. I'm not talking about game management toward team fouls, just individual fouls. This guy also thought we should try to keep the team fouls close. This is another bunch of manure!! Sorry for the ranting, but there are alot of officials out there who do that.
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Old Sun Jan 11, 2004, 08:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigJoe
Juulie,

Do you really care how many fouls a player has when you are on the court? I used to work with an official who would point out at halftime or during time-outs which players had three or four fouls and to admonish me not to hand these players a "cheap" foul. In my feeble mind, I think it is the players' and the coaches problem to see that the player doesn't pick up that fifth foul. If we start basing our calls on how many fouls a player has on them, we are in big trouble. I'm not talking about game management toward team fouls, just individual fouls. This guy also thought we should try to keep the team fouls close. This is another bunch of manure!! Sorry for the ranting, but there are alot of officials out there who do that.
I agree. This is dangerous ground.
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Old Sun Jan 11, 2004, 09:40pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigJoe
In my feeble mind, I think it is the players' and the coaches problem to see that the player doesn't pick up that fifth foul.
I agree, Big Joe.
Since all the fouls were good fouls, then the next fouls will, also, be earned.
mick
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Old Sun Jan 11, 2004, 10:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by just another ref
Quote:
Originally posted by BigJoe
Juulie,

Do you really care how many fouls a player has when you are on the court? I used to work with an official who would point out at halftime or during time-outs which players had three or four fouls and to admonish me not to hand these players a "cheap" foul. In my feeble mind, I think it is the players' and the coaches problem to see that the player doesn't pick up that fifth foul. If we start basing our calls on how many fouls a player has on them, we are in big trouble. I'm not talking about game management toward team fouls, just individual fouls. This guy also thought we should try to keep the team fouls close. This is another bunch of manure!! Sorry for the ranting, but there are alot of officials out there who do that.
I agree. This is dangerous ground.
Well, I'm gonna agree with Juulie on this point.

We should learn to not only track team fouls, but player fouls and what time they occured during the game, timeouts called and when etc... All of this will help us to manage the game better. I certainly am making it a personal POE this season. That being said, IN NO WAY would I open myself up to the type of conduct that is infered in your post. In fact, just the other night I had a G-varsity game where the foul count was 14-2. I knew who was in foul trouble, but I couldn't have cared less. I had a coach say to me during a timeout that the foul count was unballanced. I said, "You need to talk to your girls about not fouling then." Seriously, I don't care. Knowledge of the game situation doesn't mean we are going to give out "makeup calls" or change the way the game has been officiated up to this point. We should be aware that team A has 6 team fouls so that on the next foul we can make sure we get the shooter for the 1 and 1. We should know that player 30 has four fouls so that should that player get his fifth, we don't put the ball back in play until we notify the coach and get a substitution in for him.
I think that all that is being said is that we have opportunity to work on game management skills.
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Old Sun Jan 11, 2004, 11:55pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike Burns
Quote:
We should be aware that team A has 6 team fouls so that on the next foul we can make sure we get the shooter for the 1 and 1.
I agree that this is good information to keep track of, if possible.

Quote:
We should know that player 30 has four fouls so that should that player get his fifth, we don't put the ball back in play until we notify the coach and get a substitution in for him.
I think this is going overboard.
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