Odd ball plays!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BBallCoach
Dan,

The one constent I see when I read this board is how most of the officials try to be professional and how coaches are critized quite often for all the questioning of calls, and our general lack for knowledge of the rules. Now with this being said I'm confused how you can want respect or think you deserve respect because your an official, but feel it is ok to make a wise *** remark to that coach for no apprant reason but you wanted to feel good about yourself. It is officials making comments like these why most of society does not respect or care about officials. I'm sorry that you feel as a person you have the right talk down to someone because you assume you are better. I hope there are not more officials like you out in the world.

The coach asked Dan a question. Dan gave the coach a polite answer, appropriate to the question that he was asked.

With what you've said, I'm confused how YOU can want respect or think that you deserve respect because you are a coach, but feel that it is ok to make a wise*** remark to a referee for no apparent reason but you wanted to feel good about yourself.It is coaches making comments like yours why most of society does not respect or care about coaches. I'm sorry that you feel as a coach you have the right to talk down to someone because you assume you are better. I hope there are not more coaches like you out in the world.

Please don't reproduce.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Please don't reproduce.

JR -- Killing him with kindness -- new tactic?! Call it dry humor, and we'll all be rofl!

[tomegun]

Originally posted by BBallCoach
Dan,

The one constent I see when I read this board is how most of the officials try to be professional and how coaches are critized quite often for all the questioning of calls, and our general lack for knowledge of the rules. Now with this being said I'm confused how you can want respect or think you deserve respect because your an official, but feel it is ok to make a wise *** remark to that coach for no apprant reason but you wanted to feel good about yourself. It is officials making comments like these why most of society does not respect or care about officials. I'm sorry that you feel as a person you have the right talk down to someone because you assume you are better. I hope there are not more officials like you out in the world.

What do you want him to say? Where should he have gone? I think you just showed your hand with these comments. Nobody suggests a fellow official "smart-off" to a coach but when someone gives an answer that is obvious and a coach gets offended then that shows me that you have a chip on your shoulder.

[Smiley]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
For two consecutive years, we discussed this play. The size of the threads were easily the largest ever to grace this board, until last week. If the damn search engine worked, you could look it up. We discussed it to the point that the NFHS revised 9-2-2 last year.

In our discussions, we had several different opinions as to how to handle it. Quite frankly, there was no rulebook asnwer. Among some of the suggested rulings:

1- Whistle and make them inbound it properly.
2- Begin the five second count.
3- Give a delay of game warning.
4- Call a violation.

The NFHS issued 9.2.2C that states a violation should be called if A begins to advance the ball up the floor and is obviously not going to conduct a proper throw-in.

9.2.2C
9.2.2 SITUATION C: A1 scores a basket. After the ball goes through the net, B1 grabs it and makes a move toward the end line as though preparing to make a throw-in. However, B1 never legally steps out of bounds, both feet remain inbounds. B1 immediately passes the ball up the court to a fast-breaking teammate, who scores a basket.

RULING: Cancel Team B's goal, throw-in violation on B1. The ball was at B1's disposal after the made basket to make a throw-in. B1 must be out of bounds to make a legal throw-in.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 7th, 2004 at 12:35 AM]

I think the key here is that in the case play, B1 initially makes a move towards the endline. In your example, she did not and may have not even been aware that the ball went in the basket. In your case, I think I would allow a restart.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Smiley

I think the key here is that in the case play, B1 initially makes a move towards the endline. In your example, she did not and may have not even been aware that the ball went in the basket. In your case, I think I would allow a restart.

The rules won't allow you to have a re-start. It's a violatio. It's that simple.

[cmathews]

I have to agree with Smiley, the situations are not one and the same. In 9.2.2c B1 attempts an illegal throw in by not being out of bounds. In this case there is no throw in attempted. I can see delay, I can even see the 5 second count, however I can also see the validity in the argument that the player didn't know that the ball had gone through the hoop. I would be tempted to blow it dead and make them inbound it.

[BktBallRef]

I'm sorry guys, but you're wrong. This is exactly the discussion we've had previously. The NF added the case book play to address this play. It makes no difference whether someone tossed her the ball or she just started up the floor with it, it's a violation. I simply blew the violation before she passed the ball to a teammate.

Also, this is a varsity girls basketball player, the ball is bouncing on the floor and everyone else, except a teammate have taken off to the opposite end. It's not up to me to tell her the ball went in the basket. She has to figure it out or her teammate has to tell her.

For two years, we discussed a delay or a 5 second warning but the Fed said "No, this is a violation."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews
I have to agree with Smiley, the situations are not one and the same. In 9.2.2c B1 attempts an illegal throw in by not being out of bounds. In this case there is no throw in attempted. I can see delay, I can even see the 5 second count, however I can also see the validity in the argument that the player didn't know that the ball had gone through the hoop. I would be tempted to blow it dead and make them inbound it.

The NFHS clarified this rule specifically to stop officials from having to use their own judgement as to how to call this type of play. The rule used to have a gray area in it; that gray area has been completely eliminated. Rule 9-2-2 couldn't be more explicit now.It is a violation. If you call it any other way,you are wrong, by rule!

As BktBallRef said, we spent weeks going over the different ways that this play could have be called under the old, vague language. The FED then changed the language, and it can only be called one way now- whether we agree with it, or not.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BBallCoach
Dan,

The one constent I see when I read this board is how most of the officials try to be professional and how coaches are critized quite often for all the questioning of calls, and our general lack for knowledge of the rules. Now with this being said I'm confused how you can want respect or think you deserve respect because your an official, but feel it is ok to make a wise *** remark to that coach for no apprant reason but you wanted to feel good about yourself. It is officials making comments like these why most of society does not respect or care about officials. I'm sorry that you feel as a person you have the right talk down to someone because you assume you are better. I hope there are not more officials like you out in the world.

Thanks for the laugh coach.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

The NFHS clarified this rule specifically to stop officials from having to use their own judgement as to how to call this type of play. The rule used to have a gray area in it; that gray area has been completely eliminated. Rule 9-2-2 couldn't be more explicit now.It is a violation. If you call it any other way,you are wrong, by rule!

As BktBallRef said, we spent weeks going over the different ways that this play could have be called under the old, vague language. The FED then changed the language, and it can only be called one way now- whether we agree with it, or not.

I don't disagree that it probably at that level should be a violation, but that case book play is not even close to this play. The case book is a throw in from inside the boundary, and a throw in violation, this is just retrieving the ball and heading up court, as if it were a rebound, no throw in is even attempted. It could be an honest mistake, for crying out loud there are times that an official needs their partner to tell them that the ball went through the hoop why would it be hard to believe a player could be in the same boat. With all that said, since I didn't see all the discussions, I will defer to the majority, and 1) hope it never happens and 2) if it does, call it a violation

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by cmathews
It could be an honest mistake, for crying out loud there are times that an official needs their partner to tell them that the ball went through the hoop why would it be hard to believe a player could be in the same boat.

Wyoming, I can't argue with that. But you'll have to ask the player's partner why she didn't tell her teammate that the ball went in the basket. She's not my partner.

It probably was an honest mistake but so is not stepping completely OOB, stepping inbounds before releasing the ball, and throwing it in to a teammate who then steps OOB and throws it back in. And those are violations as well, even though they're honest mistakes.

There can't be a case play that's exactly like everything you'll ever see on the floor. But the same rule, intent and principle apply. Like JR said, whether we like it or not, it's a violation.

[Damian]

It actually works about 1 out of 5. Usually in Jr High. The main thing to remember is not to be a part of the ruse. Make sure you use proper mechanics, get on the correct side. Call out the color and point as you would always do. The lead should be under the basket (alone). Othewise, you are helping the team in a trick play.

On the other end, I had a game where an A player got an offensive rebound after a scramble for the ball. Everyone took off down the court. The A caoch even had him come over to tell him a play before he went down the court. I am looking at his thinking "second half, they are shooting at this end..there is going to be a backcourt any minute". Sure enough. As soon as he stepped on the line, I blew the whistle and called the backcourt. I think I was the only one in the gym that realized it. As soon as I made the call, the coach just about fell ove.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Wyoming, I can't argue with that. But you'll have to ask the player's partner why she didn't tell her teammate that the ball went in the basket. She's not my partner.

Yeah and she has four partners we at the most have 2 LOL ...... Not that it matters but did the coach have a fit or take it pretty well?

[Adam]

Originally posted by Damian
It actually works about 1 out of 5. Usually in Jr High. The main thing to remember is not to be a part of the ruse. Make sure you use proper mechanics, get on the correct side. Call out the color and point as you would always do. The lead should be under the basket (alone). Othewise, you are helping the team in a trick play.

Just a question, but shouldn't the lead drift out a bit (maybe free throw line or so) as if covering a press? In case there's actually some activity to cover?

snaqwells

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by cmathews

Yeah and she has four partners we at the most have 2 LOL ...... Not that it matters but did the coach have a fit or take it pretty well?

Not a peep.