HS Tournament Officials

[referee930]

Even though the season has started for most of us, some officials are talking about tournament games. I was just curious as to how different states select tournament officials. I know how it is done in Ohio but alot of us hate it. How does your state select tournament officals and what would be a better way of selecting them other than coaches picking them?

[JRutledge]

In Illinois the IHSA does it. They have a system of ratings from coaches and officials and factor it with other things like ranking and years of experience. There are is a 30 point number system that is used, but is not the final say in what you get. Local Associations have little to no say over who gets what and who does not get anything. They are allowed to submit a Top 15 list, but that only has so much weight. Schools can submit a Top 15 list, which will weight more if several schools put you on the their list.

Basically you advance by accomplishing certain levels first. The first level is a Regional, then Sectional, then Super-Sectional, then downstate at the State Finals. You will not advance usually if you have never done a Regional the year before or Sectional depending on what level you have achieved. It takes some years to do this and just does not happen to you.

There is much more to it, but that is very basic information.

Peace

[tomegun]

I don't really see any positives for letting a school have a say in who does playoffs. And, what schools have a say? Playoff teams or all teams? By this I mean that some things happen in a game that are black and white (no pun intended, well maybe there is) and must be taken care of. I like to call this getting dirty. Some officials already do not like to get dirty and knowing a coach has a say in how long your season lasts would make an official that much more reluctant to get dirty.
I'm not saying we do things above and beyond our responsibilities. I'm also not saying anyone on this board would ignore something to stay in the good graces of a coach. But, I have seen it happen with officials that aren't on this board so I know it happens.

Can you tell us what the positives are?

[Ron Pilo]

In Washington each group get a number of allocations based on the number of officials in thier respective group.

Last season the SOWB got a total of 14 allocations,
4-4A; 5-3A; 1-2A, 2-A, 2-B.

We have a ranked list of varsity officials and our assignor starts at the top of the list and asks what tourney they want to work. Our assignor continues down the list until all allocations are filled.

Neither the state, AD's or coached have any say in WHO works the state tourney.

[johnSandlin]

In Michigan, officials are selected by a committee made up of conference supervisors, athletic directors, coaches, and retired officials.

Selections are made based on schedules, ratings, recommendations, and previous post season assignments given to each official.

The committee made up of different people for each sport. In every sport except baseball, all rounds of the playoffs are assigned. However, in baseball the Districts, Regionals, and Quarterfinals are assigned first. Then a group of people from the selection committee go out and watch umpires that were recommended for the finals in their early round playoff games, and then make their(selection committee) decision based what they saw the umpire do.

In short, they are using the NCAA process of assigning, which as officials we hope will used in all sports sometime in the future.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by tomegun

Can you tell us what the positives are?

Assignments are based on a number of factors, but not limited to the
following:

1. Power Rating 30 points possible
a. Promotional level X – R – C, C – 5 pts., R – 3 pts., X – 1 pts.
b. Part 1 exam score 97 - 5 pts., 92 – 4 pts., 87 – 3 pts., 84 – 2 pts, 80 – 1 pts.
c. Previous tournament experience SF – 5 pt., Super or Semi – 4 pts.,
Sec/Quart 3—pts., Regional – 1 pt.
d. All rating (use percentile based on average rating divided by # of ratings)
90% - 5 pts. 80% - 4 pts. 70% - 3 pts. 60% - 2 pts. 50 % - 1 pt.
e. Number of High School varsity games worked
70% - 5 pts., 60% - 4 pts., 50% - 3 pts., 40% - 2 pts., 30% - 1 pt.
(based on number of games allowed by the IHSA by-laws in regular
season for each sport by the IHSA by-laws)
f. Top 15 List from Associations, Assignors, and Schools (based on
percentile of average rating divide by the number of rating)
90% - 5 pts., 80% - 4 pts., 70% - 3 pts. 60% - 2 pts., 50% - 1 pt.
2. Must have a current certified clinic
3. Must have attended a rules interpretation meeting during the current year
4. Officials availability
5. Geographic consideration of officials assigned
6. Preference is given to Certified Official with high power rating – then to
Recognized Official with high power rating. High power rating may move a
Registered Official over a Certified Official in early rounds of the post season
tournament.
7. Information that the IHSA has on each official in our database that is reviewed
to determine assignments:
a. Power rating (maximum 30 pts.)
b. Percentile rating of the official
c. Percentile rating of the Top 15 List
d. Promotion level (X, R, C)
e. Previous tournament experience
f. Games the officials have officiated broken down by Class A – Class AA and
boys or girls games
g. Geographic location
h. Years of experience
i. Last certified clinic date & level of the clinic
j. Last rules interpretation date
k. Probation/Suspension status

This is word for word in our Official's Manual.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Interesting that they put test scores up there in the #1 criteria...based on all the discussions over the years about tests and test scores, that must not sit well with many of the officials in your state...had any problems with that issue in your area?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rockyroad
Interesting that they put test scores up there in the #1 criteria...

Where did you get #1 from?

Maybe I read this thing differently than you do, but considering that it is apart of a power rating system (you can only get 5 at the most for each category), which also includes Promotion Status, Previous tournament experience, All ratings, number of varsity games and Top 15 list percentiles. There is a 30 point system and getting points on test scores is the easiest to get 5 points in your favor.

Promotion status--takes time to get to a C (5 years if you do it right away).

Previous Tournament Experience--If you are not a C, you can just about forget it.

All Ratings--Again, you better be respected by your peers and coaches for this to be high.

Number of Varsity games--You will not get varsity games unless you attend camps, assignors like you and they you are qualified to handle varsity in their conference, schools like you and this is also backed up by fact you cannot be rated unless you have done a varsity contest.

Top 15 List Percentile--If you are not a C, forget even realistically being put on this list by associations or assignors. That is not going to happen. I can put my career on that. And unless again, you are respected by the coaches and ADs as an official, you might as well forget being put on there list as well. This percentile is also compiled for a two year period. So you must have some history in being put on these lists.

Originally posted by rockyroad

based on all the discussions over the years about tests and test scores, that must not sit well with many of the officials in your state...had any problems with that issue in your area?

Why, it is an open book test? If you cannot get a 97 on the test, you are not too bright to begin with.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Where did you get #1 from?

Why, it is an open book test? If you cannot get a 97 on the test, you are not too bright to begin with.

Peace

I got #1 from your previous post, which listed 7 areas or criteria, and test scores was under #1...and we all know that with the way those tests are written missing 3 or 4 questions is not only easy but fairly common - and I don't think that has much to do with intelligence levels...but your state goes have an interesting evaluation process...

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by rockyroad


I got #1 from your previous post, which listed 7 areas or criteria, and test scores was under #1...and we all know that with the way those tests are written missing 3 or 4 questions is not only easy but fairly common - and I don't think that has much to do with intelligence levels...but your state goes have an interesting evaluation process...

You can get 100 on the test. You can get 85 on the test. You can get a 95. If you are not a Certified Official, you are not getting a playoff game, thanks for playin. Even if those officials that are fortunate to get a playoff as an X (Registered official, everyone is this level at the very beginning) or an R, you will never advance past the Regional level. No association, no assignor is even going to give you consideration in the other areas of consideration if you do not take the time to get your ranking to a Certified official. And you can interpret all night about how important the test is, and you will find that if you are not Certified, you can almost guarantee your fate in the playoffs. And that would be watching it like most of the officials do throughout the state.

So for any official that moves to this state, has experience and can consistently get high marks on the Part 1 Exam, be prepared to sit for some years until you become Certified.

Peace

[tomegun]

JRut, whoa wait a minute. IHSA, is that Indiana or Illinois? I'm from Indiana, that's why I ask.

I can agree with most of what you said because it makes sense except for one thing. I don't agree with someone from a school having a say in who get's in the playoffs. I just had an experience last night that showed me again that some officials do not want to handle the "dirty work" in order to keep coaches and administrators happy. We are already fighting a losing battle as far as sportsmanship goes. You add the fact that a "big time" coach has a say in how far you advance and then he gets away with stuff. Remember, I'm not talking about anyone on this board but I have seen this happen. Has anyone else seen this happen? Honestly.

In Nevada it is up to the commissioner. The state is broken up into south, north and east. Each region has a commissioner and they decide. This has it's flaws too but overall you have a mix of reward and need. You reward some officials and you need other officials. The games are assigned according to how the commissioner feels you do. You could have made a tough call on a team and that coach just has to deal with it, he/she has no say. One thing they do in Nevada which is an abomination is the playoffs are in Zones. Depending on a rotating system a zone could put 3 teams in the state tournament. You could come in 3rd in the zone and win state the next week! This is still unreal to me. Being from Indiana I believe in putting all the teams in and one team will be left standing. I know they changed the format in Indiana and I think that is an abomination too.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by tomegun
JRut, whoa wait a minute. IHSA, is that Indiana or Illinois? I'm from Indiana, that's why I ask.

Illinois High School Association.

Originally posted by tomegun
I can agree with most of what you said because it makes sense except for one thing. I don't agree with someone from a school having a say in who get's in the playoffs.

You can agree or disagree, I am just sharing with you what the system is, I did not create the system myself. To be honest with you, schools always have a say to some extent. Do not ever think because you have just a "board" makes the decisions, that they are not influenced by what schools and coaches want. Because if you have had run ins with many coaches, it is going to make the powers that be think about what you have been doing out there to have them dislike you so much. You know, the when there is smoke, there must be fire theory.


I just had an experience last night that showed me again that some officials do not want to handle the "dirty work" in order to keep coaches and administrators happy. We are already fighting a losing battle as far as sportsmanship goes.

Well, I know officials that do the dirty work often, and it never has seemed to affect their playoff opportunity. At least in my system, the coach accounts for one rating. So I really could give a rat's a$$ if a coach does not like me or not. It has never hurt me in getting in the conference I want to work or even the school I want to work.

You add the fact that a "big time" coach has a say in how far you advance and then he gets away with stuff. Remember, I'm not talking about anyone on this board but I have seen this happen. Has anyone else seen this happen? Honestly.

If one coach is that mad at me over something I did in his or her game, I probably pasted 10-20 school to get to that one. So who cares what a "big time" coach thinks. I know of no coach that has so much power that the folks downstate are influence by him or her. I can give you some stories of some very public episodes, with Ts flying and coaches getting thrown out, and the officials at the game still went far in the playoffs. In our system, who cares what one coach thinks. It is a lot better than the system we had before.

In Nevada it is up to the commissioner. The state is broken up into south, north and east. Each region has a commissioner and they decide. This has it's flaws too but overall you have a mix of reward and need. You reward some officials and you need other officials. The games are assigned according to how the commissioner feels you do.

As I stated, one person makes the decision who makes the playoffs. One person for the Boy's side, one person for the Girl's side. This is just a recent thing that they tell us what the criteria are. But I do know that all of that is just a guideline, not the final straw. Because as officials advance thru the playoffs, if someone representing the IHSA does not see you, you are not going to likely go that far in the playoffs to begin with. All that data might help you get in, but you have to prove that you were worthy to advance. And you will probably never advance to the next level, like a Sectional (second level) or Super-Sectional(third-level), unless you have done at least a Regional or Sectional in past years. So I can speak for myself, I will not be doing a Super-Sectional this coming year.

Originally posted by tomegun
You could have made a tough call on a team and that coach just has to deal with it, he/she has no say.

I could be wrong, but I do not buy that completely. Because if you make a tough call, I am sure the assignor, commissioner is not going to just send you to a bad situation on purpose, especially if the coach or AD complained heavily. I do not believe that the commissioner takes no account of what others think about you as an official. Unless he went out and saw you work every game, I am sure he takes into account what someone thinks about your ability. Now, that does not mean that the information that is giving is the final say, but I am not going to just believe that no coach can ever complain about an official. I cannot speak for Nevada, but Illinois has over 800 schools that are IHSA members. All of them make the playoffs. So if you cannot get a playoff game, you have more to worry about then what one coach thinks. There is much more to getting a playoff game (7 areas to be specific).

Peace

[tomegun]

Rut: You can agree or disagree, I am just sharing with you what the system is, I did not create the system myself. To be honest with you, schools always have a say to some extent. Do not ever think because you have just a "board" makes the decisions, that they are not influenced by what schools and coaches want. Because if you have had run ins with many coaches, it is going to make the powers that be think about what you have been doing out there to have them dislike you so much. You know, the when there is smoke, there must be fire theory.


Tomegun: I was not talking about one person having problems with many coaches. I'm talking about calls that many officials don't have the guts to call and an official calls it and a coach wants him crucified.

Rut: As I stated, one person makes the decision who makes the playoffs. One person for the Boy's side, one person for the Girl's side. This is just a recent thing that they tell us what the criteria are. But I do know that all of that is just a guideline, not the final straw. Because as officials advance thru the playoffs, if someone representing the IHSA does not see you, you are not going to likely go that far in the playoffs to begin with. All that data might help you get in, but you have to prove that you were worthy to advance. And you will probably never advance to the next level, like a Sectional (second level) or Super-Sectional(third-level), unless you have done at least a Regional or Sectional in past years. So I can speak for myself, I will not be doing a Super-Sectional this coming year.

Tomegun: I was just telling you how it is in Las Vegas. If you handle your business in the state of Nevada you will progress. Pure and simple. I have advanced as far as you can go in class 3A boys and I know the process for choosing officials.

Rut: I could be wrong, but I do not buy that completely. Because if you make a tough call, I am sure the assignor, commissioner is not going to just send you to a bad situation on purpose, especially if the coach or AD complained heavily.

Tomegun: I have also seen what some would call bad situations and what are bad situations. I'm not criticizing you or the Illinois system. I'm simply stating that a coach should have zero influence. I've seen this attempted and I've seen it fail. In the state of Nevada there are opportunities for good officials and more importantly good people. I know this for a fact.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by tomegun


Tomegun: I have also seen what some would call bad situations and what are bad situations. I'm not criticizing you or the Illinois system. I'm simply stating that a coach should have zero influence. I've seen this attempted and I've seen it fail. In the state of Nevada there are opportunities for good officials and more importantly good people. I know this for a fact.

I am not taking anything you say as a critizism, but just telling you what I see reality is. All I am stating, is whether you realize it or not, whether it is in black and white or not, coaches and schools have influence. Because if the schools know who the commissioner is, I am sure they complain to him/her more than you realize. Just like the assignors I work with here. The assignors have the final say as to who works the games, but they do get complaints from coaches and ADs about officials. Now the assignor might want to see tape or want to get some understanding from a play, but if the coach is right about an official's attitude or demeanor or it was brought to their attention about something the assignor/commissioner, the person in charge I am sure takes that information into account. Now they might not be a slave to that information, but I am sure it plays some kind of part in any system that is out there.

Now this is just what the state says is the factors, anyone that has any sense realizes (in my state I am talking about), that there are factors that play big parts as well. If you work one or a few conferences, if you are not Certifed, if you do not attend clinics if you do not work a lot of the certain class of ball (A or AA, Boys or Girls), if you are not ranked high in your area (state breaks officials into geograpical regions) and you do not have enough experience. All these things will keep you out of the playoffs. And I know that if you are an official that works in a very small area and does not broden your horizons. I work for more than 5 assignors, I will be in a better position to get a playoff as compared to someone that only works for one assignor.

And the most thing of all, if someone (not a coach) that has influence sees you and likes you, you will get in the playoffs I can guarantee you that. Happen to me in Football last year and I did not meet many of these requirements to warrant the assignment. I was an X Official and had no business (in my opinion) to get that opportunity. I might be a good official, but I had not done what others did and with many other C officials staying home. That was not right to me, and I was an R official this year and stayed home. And the only reason I got that opportunity in football, I worked with a crew that was getting consideration for their second State Final and was seen by the individual that makes the decisions of playoff assignments for football and I got an opportunity. I was on no Top 15 lists, I was not a highly rated official based on percentile of ratings and I was not a C official, but in 2002 in the first round, I was there. Go figure.

Peace