When do you assess the T?

[ref18]

THis did happen in a high school game

[kwump]

Hawks Coach said the scorer shouldn't add this info until instructed. In a game yesterday, number 4 scored and the name and number wasn't in the book. The scorer then wrote in #4 and put in the 2 points. A minute later during a dead ball the scorer the scorer informed me that there was no #4 in the book so she wrote it in while the play was on to record the 2 points. The name of the player was still missing. Is it too late to assess the T because the scorer had written the number in? Is the T still assessed because the name is missing and needs to be added? What would have happened if the scorer knew the name of the player and had added it prematurely as well?

[Adam]

The infraction is penalized when discovered by the officials. Entering the information prematurely could be construed as a scorer's error, which can be corrected at any time. Bottom line, blow the T when the scorer tells you about it.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Why would anyone be proud of never starting a game with a T? That'd be like a cop proud of never giving a speeding ticket. You can look the other way on some minor things (the name going in at 9:30) but we had a JV game the other night that started with a T when the JV didn't have starters marked with 6:00 to go. Those 10 minutes are for the coaches to contemplate their matchups and other plans based on who is starting for the opponents. If a T has to happen, it has nothing to do with you as an official, and you shouldn't have a streak.

Last night we didn't get an FT violation called, in the third quarter of a close varsity game, after the official gave the shooter the ball, then recognized a player in one of the top spaces. He blew the whistle, took the ball back, told the player to move, and administered the second. I got him to come explain why there was no violation, and he told me that it was his fault she was there. I agreed, and then told him once the shooter had the ball, it was the violator's fault and not his, but he did not agree. Then his slimy partner told me that his partner kicked it next chance he got. I already knew that, but now I knew the other guy didn't have enough cajones to correct him at the time, and undercut his partner as well.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
The infraction is penalized when discovered by the officials. Entering the information prematurely could be construed as a scorer's error, which can be corrected at any time. Bottom line, blow the T when the scorer tells you about it.

I'm afraid that's not true. The T is asssesed when the scorer makes the change. If the scorer doesn't inform the officials, no T can be assessed.

10.1.2 SITUATION: (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member's number in the scorebook. When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction?

RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
... then recognized a player in one of the top spaces.

Huh?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Why would anyone be proud of never starting a game with a T? That'd be like a cop proud of never giving a speeding ticket. You can look the other way on some minor things (the name going in at 9:30) but we had a JV game the other night that started with a T when the JV didn't have starters marked with 6:00 to go.

So you're saying we can be proud of ignoring "some minor" book things at 9:30 but we're wrong to let it go to 6:00.

Can you tell us more about what you mean by minor? And what we should do if your defintion of minor doesn't quite agree with the other coach's definition?

Can you give us a more definite time when we should go from being softies to being hard @sses? Maybe at 7:37? 8:23?

(Rhetorical if somewhat sarcastic obviously. I think you get my point.)

Last night we didn't get an FT violation called, in the third quarter of a close varsity game, after the official gave the shooter the ball, then recognized a player in one of the top spaces. He blew the whistle, took the ball back, told the player to move, and administered the second. I got him to come explain why there was no violation, and he told me that it was his fault she was there. I agreed, and then told him once the shooter had the ball, it was the violator's fault and not his, but he did not agree. Then his slimy partner told me that his partner kicked it next chance he got. I already knew that, but now I knew the other guy didn't have enough cajones to correct him at the time, and undercut his partner as well.

The first guy was right, take the ball back & reset.
You have the second guy figured out pretty well.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Dan,

I hear what you are saying. Personally I'd like to see the T if the starters aren't in at 9:59. I can live with a little discretion, but way too often it goes too far, especially at the varsity level. Things like "hands off" in the fourth quarter. If you keep warning and never call, what's the point?

And no, the first guy wasn't correct. If he didn't discover the player lined up out of position until after the shooter had the ball, there is no justification for him to call a "do-over".

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
And no, the first guy wasn't correct. If he didn't discover the player lined up out of position until after the shooter had the ball, there is no justification for him to call a "do-over".

Oops, that's what I did in my first (college) game this season last Saturday. Guess I booted it. As Dan would say, :shrug:

[BktBallRef]

If we're shooting 2 or 3, and the players are in the wrong spots, I am not going to penalize the shooter on the initial shot. The "violations" had no effect on whether the ball went in or not. I going to correct it and shoot the next one.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach
Dan,

I hear what you are saying. Personally I'd like to see the T if the starters aren't in at 9:59. I can live with a little discretion, but way too often it goes too far, especially at the varsity level. Things like "hands off" in the fourth quarter. If you keep warning and never call, what's the point?

And no, the first guy wasn't correct. If he didn't discover the player lined up out of position until after the shooter had the ball, there is no justification for him to call a "do-over".

I know you're a good coach because while we're discussing the play that just happened now in the 4th quarter you start b1tching about a play that is completely off topic & happened in the first quarter!

If we are ever able to enjoy a game together you'll find I don't warn and I go out of my way to not start the game with an admin T. In fact of the 6 games I've had so far this year 3 times we needed to ignore this, twice by me & once when I wasn't R. So you'll be half happy with my work. As for the FT violation, seeing as we're barely into December and this is the first year for you guys with the new line ups it would have been especially silly to handle it in any other way than how it was handled. Now, a bit of advice for the new referees out there: if you notice the players are lined up incorrectly simply blow the whistle & take the ball from the shooter. While you are wiping the excess moisture off the ball (or maybe there's a speck of dirt in your eye?) quietly tell the offending player to move. And if you run into PA Coach here and he tells you the violation carries over simply tell him sorry, you didn't notice any violation but you'll be sure to grab it next time. When all is good continue. And you will have a long, happy & succesful run as a basketball official.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
And you will have a long, happy & succesful run as a basketball official.

I suppose they can try it your way, but if it hasn't worked for you. . .

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I suppose they can try it your way, but if it hasn't worked for you. . .

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I'm afraid that's not true. The T is asssesed when the scorer makes the change. If the scorer doesn't inform the officials, no T can be assessed.

10.1.2 SITUATION: (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member's number in the scorebook. When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction?

RULING: The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

Tony, I had a very similar situation last season, and we assessed the T, which I now see from your reference, was wrong. But our situation was slightly different, and I'm wondering what you would have done. What happened in our case is that the visiting book person came to us at half-time, and said that the home book person had changed and not told us. Sure enough, after some investigation, we found out she had. So if you think there was an intent to deceive, what would be the penalty? Just to change the "official" score book to now be the visitor book?