carry/illegal dribble

[IAABO_Ref]

It IS a pass a bad pass but still a pass.

Rule 4-31

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

A1 passed the ball to A2. A2 didn’t see the pass. So what it was a ball looking for player control A1 gets to the ball and picks it up again it’s nothing and A1 still can dribble.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
It IS a pass a bad pass but still a pass.

Rule 4-31

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

A1 passed the ball to A2. A2 didn’t see the pass. So what it was a ball looking for player control A1 gets to the ball and picks it up again it’s nothing and A1 still can dribble.

Not correct. If A1 "picks it up" (e.g., both hands, holding the ball), A1 cannot (legally) dribble again.

The specific play is in the casebook somewhere.

But, it does lead to a couple of interesting questions: if A1 steps on the boundary line while running for the ball, is it OOB? If A1 commits a foul while going for the ball, is it a player control foul?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JeffTheRef
That's what the ref had. Or was it two left brains?

Even now, seven years later, I can barely bring myself to think about it. My older boy's team lost in the state tournament one year in a game where a play exactly like the one being discussed had a real effect. Last year I watched the video for the first time. Kid (who shouldn't have been in the game) dribbled with his left, ball came up, hit his left forearm, bounced and hit his right forearm, fell to the floor, and he tried to keep dribbling it. The official signaled double dribble . . .

I argued with him later, that there was no basis in the rules . . . it just looked funny.

I am very interested in any casebook rulings from yesteryear, whatever anyone has. I just want to know before I die . . .

Seven years ago? I hope you're joking.

Anyway, how's the kid doing? Must be all growed up & out of the house by now.

[rainmaker]

Well, I'm going to push this issue a little to get some clarity. Here are some case plays I'd like some opinions on.

1) A1 is standing with the ball. A2 is standing, also. A1 passes to A2. A1 puts one hand up in the air to stop the ball, which drops to the ground then A2 catches it with two hands. A2 then releases the ball and dribbles down the floor. Legal?

2) A2 is running down the floor, dribbling with her left hand. Bounce, bounce, bounce... now as the ball comes up after the third bounce, A2 changes direction. Her left hand receives the ball, and pushes it again to the floor, but her momentum is carrying her away from the ball, so her right hand reaches down and pushes the ball again before it hits the floor. She does this to change the direction of the ball. Legal?

2b) same scenario except that as A2 changes direction, as the ball is bouncing up so to speak, her left thigh bumps the ball, which then drops again toward the floor but slightly askew. In order to maintain control, A2 reaches down with her left hand and pushes the ball to the floor to change its direction. A2's hand touches the ball between the time the ball hit the thigh, and the time it hit the floor. Legal?

2c) same scenario, except that as the ball bounces off the thigh of A2, she catches it with two hands. Legal? Does she have any dribble left?

3) A2 dribbles, bounce, bounce, as the ball is coming up from the floor, A2 bats it over the head of a defender, then on the other side, waits for it to hit the floor once before using the left hand only to continue the dribble. Legal?

4) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is standing, and closely guarded. A2 throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around and begins to dribble, using only one hand, (a)before the ball hits the floor, or (b) after the ball hits the floor. legal or not?

5) A2, standing, throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around the defender, then catches the ball using two hands before it hits the floor. Legal? Can she still dribble?

3)

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Well, I'm going to push this issue a little to get some clarity. Here are some case plays I'd like some opinions on.

1) A1 is standing with the ball. A2 is standing, also. A1 passes to A2. A1 puts one hand up in the air to stop the ball, which drops to the ground then A2 catches it with two hands. A2 then releases the ball and dribbles down the floor. Legal?

I assume you mena "A2 puts one hand up to stop the ball."

Legal play, unless you judge the action by A2 to be the start of a dribble (approximately never).

2a) A2 is running down the floor, dribbling with her left hand. Bounce, bounce, bounce... now as the ball comes up after the third bounce, A2 changes direction. Her left hand receives the ball, and pushes it again to the floor, but her momentum is carrying her away from the ball, so her right hand reaches down and pushes the ball again before it hits the floor. She does this to change the direction of the ball. Legal?

Depends. If you judge this to be an interrpted dribble / fumble, then it's legal. If you judge it to be a "planned" / "controlled" move, then it's illegal.

2b) same scenario except that as A2 changes direction, as the ball is bouncing up so to speak, her left thigh bumps the ball, which then drops again toward the floor but slightly askew. In order to maintain control, A2 reaches down with her left hand and pushes the ball to the floor to change its direction. A2's hand touches the ball between the time the ball hit the thigh, and the time it hit the floor. Legal?

Ditto.

2c) same scenario, except that as the ball bounces off the thigh of A2, she catches it with two hands. Legal? Does she have any dribble left?

Legal, but the dribble has ended.

3) A2 dribbles, bounce, bounce, as the ball is coming up from the floor, A2 bats it over the head of a defender, then on the other side, waits for it to hit the floor once before using the left hand only to continue the dribble. Legal?

Legal.

4) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is standing, and closely guarded. A2 throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around and begins to dribble, using only one hand, (a)before the ball hits the floor, or (b) after the ball hits the floor. legal or not?

(a) illegal. (b) legal if the ball was released before the pivot foot was raised

5) A2, standing, throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around the defender, then catches the ball using two hands before it hits the floor. Legal? Can she still dribble?

Illegal. I'd call it travelling, but I think the FED calls it an illegal dribble.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Well, I'm going to push this issue a little to get some clarity. Here are some case plays I'd like some opinions on.

1) A1 is standing with the ball. A2 is standing, also. A1 passes to A2. A1 puts one hand up in the air to stop the ball, which drops to the ground then A2 catches it with two hands. A2 then releases the ball and dribbles down the floor. Legal?

****yes

2) A2 is running down the floor, dribbling with her left hand. Bounce, bounce, bounce... now as the ball comes up after the third bounce, A2 changes direction. Her left hand receives the ball, and pushes it again to the floor, but her momentum is carrying her away from the ball, so her right hand reaches down and pushes the ball again before it hits the floor. She does this to change the direction of the ball. Legal?

*****did the ball come to rest on her hand? if not then play on...(as a practical matter maybe ignore it if there were no defenders in the area)

2b) same scenario except that as A2 changes direction, as the ball is bouncing up so to speak, her left thigh bumps the ball, which then drops again toward the floor but slightly askew. In order to maintain control, A2 reaches down with her left hand and pushes the ball to the floor to change its direction. A2's hand touches the ball between the time the ball hit the thigh, and the time it hit the floor. Legal?

****sigh...by this time I hope coach A is screaming for her to pass te ball...anywya, the way I read it sounds ugly but good so far.

2c) same scenario, except that as the ball bounces off the thigh of A2, she catches it with two hands. Legal? Does she have any dribble left?

****can't see what's illegal but she (as they say) has used up her dribble

3) A2 dribbles, bounce, bounce, as the ball is coming up from the floor, A2 bats it over the head of a defender, then on the other side, waits for it to hit the floor once before using the left hand only to continue the dribble. Legal?

****ahhh..nice move! did the ball come to rest on her hand? if not then play on.

4) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is standing, and closely guarded. A2 throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around and begins to dribble, using only one hand, (a)before the ball hits the floor, or (b) after the ball hits the floor. legal or not?

***i think in (a) we got one of them can't hit the ball twice deals. no problem whatsoever in b.

5) A2, standing, throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around the defender, then catches the ball using two hands before it hits the floor. Legal? Can she still dribble?

****travel

3)

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Well, I'm going to push this issue a little to get some clarity. Here are some case plays I'd like some opinions on.

1) A1 is standing with the ball. A2 is standing, also. A1 passes to A2. A1 puts one hand up in the air to stop the ball, which drops to the ground then A2 catches it with two hands. A2 then releases the ball and dribbles down the floor. Legal?

Maybe. Was it controled. If so, the subsequent dribble was illegal. If not, no violation.

Originally posted by rainmaker
2) A2 is running down the floor, dribbling with her left hand. Bounce, bounce, bounce... now as the ball comes up after the third bounce, A2 changes direction. Her left hand receives the ball, and pushes it again to the floor, but her momentum is carrying her away from the ball, so her right hand reaches down and pushes the ball again before it hits the floor. She does this to change the direction of the ball. Legal?

This is controversial but I say legal. The rules say the dribble ends when both hand touch it simultaneously. This was not simultaneously.

The rules also say that the ball may be batted into the air but must be allowed to hit the floor before touching it again. This was not into the air but to the floor. To understand this rule, you must go WAY back to the air dribble (which I think predates all of us).

Originally posted by rainmaker
2b) same scenario except that as A2 changes direction, as the ball is bouncing up so to speak, her left thigh bumps the ball, which then drops again toward the floor but slightly askew. In order to maintain control, A2 reaches down with her left hand and pushes the ball to the floor to change its direction. A2's hand touches the ball between the time the ball hit the thigh, and the time it hit the floor. Legal?

Yes.

Originally posted by rainmaker
2c) same scenario, except that as the ball bounces off the thigh of A2, she catches it with two hands. Legal? Does she have any dribble left?

Legal. No dribble left.

Originally posted by rainmaker
3) A2 dribbles, bounce, bounce, as the ball is coming up from the floor, A2 bats it over the head of a defender, then on the other side, waits for it to hit the floor once before using the left hand only to continue the dribble. Legal?

Legal. Rule reference above.

Originally posted by rainmaker
4) A1 passes the ball to A2 who is standing, and closely guarded. A2 throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around and begins to dribble, using only one hand, (a)before the ball hits the floor, or (b) after the ball hits the floor. legal or not?

a) travel. The pivot foot move before the ball was release on a dribble. b) legal.

Originally posted by rainmaker
5) A2, standing, throws the ball over the head of the defender, runs around the defender, then catches the ball using two hands before it hits the floor. Legal? Can she still dribble?

Travel. Again, the pivot foot moved without giving up control and without a dribble.

[IAABO_Ref]

Why couldn't A1 Dribble again? A1 never dribbled prior to the pass. I could be wrong but I'd like to read the case.

rainmaker has been in the case book.

[just another ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

2) A2 is running down the floor, dribbling with her left hand. Bounce, bounce, bounce... now as the ball comes up after the third bounce, A2 changes direction. Her left hand receives the ball, and pushes it again to the floor, but her momentum is carrying her away from the ball, so her right hand reaches down and pushes the ball again before it hits the floor. She does this to change the direction of the ball. Legal?

She pushes the ball twice, once with each hand and both pushes are downward?? I doubt if I would know if this is a violation or not, simply because it would be too quick to see.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
Why couldn't A1 Dribble again? A1 never dribbled prior to the pass. I could be wrong but I'd like to read the case.

You are wrong. See case book play4.4.5. Same rationale.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
Why couldn't A1 Dribble again? A1 never dribbled prior to the pass. I could be wrong but I'd like to read the case.

A1 can't dribble because it already has. What you describe is not a pass, it's the beginning of a dribble. When A1 retrieves the ball and strats another dribble, it's a double dribble.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
It IS a pass a bad pass but still a pass.

Rule 4-31

A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

Sorry, but it's not a pass. By the definition you just quoted, a pass is to another player. But in this play, A1 threw the ball to himself. So it can't be a pass.

Instead, I direct you to Rule 4-15-1: "A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times."

That's what happened here. A1 threw the ball and let it bounce; that's pushing it to the floor. If it had gone to another player, it would fit the definition of a pass. But since it didn't go to another player, it must be a dribble.

So what it was a ball looking for player control A1 gets to the ball and picks it up again it’s nothing and A1 still can dribble.

If A1 catches the ball, then s/he has ended the dribble and may not dribble again. If A1 merely bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble, that's fine.

[cowbyfan1]

ok so if I'm getting the gist of all this, even tho the body (not the hand) is getting under the ball, even stopping rotation of the ball, as long as the dribble continues, it is legal.
That is the main thing I was looking for.

[sleebo]

It would seem to me that if the ball comes to rest on the body (in a hand, against the stomach, knee, hip, etc.) and the dribbler then puts the ball on the floor for another dribble, you have illegal ("double") dribble.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by sleebo
It would seem to me that if the ball comes to rest on the body (in a hand, against the stomach, knee, hip, etc.) and the dribbler then puts the ball on the floor for another dribble, you have illegal ("double") dribble.

Reference (for other than "in a hand"), please.