Bad toss and rejump - the clock. - Page 3

tomegun · #31 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 07:39am

The ball is legally touched. What did the players do that is illegal. It is a bad toss. Not an illegal toss. Is there such a thing as an illegal toss? Someone needs to find it in the rule book where is says something about putting time back on the clock for a bad toss. Yes, the clock shouldn't start but if it does where does it say you can put time back on the clock?

mick · #32 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 08:28am

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
The ball is legally touched. What did the players do that is illegal. It is a bad toss. Not an illegal toss. Is there such a thing as an illegal toss? Someone needs to find it in the rule book where is says something about putting time back on the clock for a bad toss. Yes, the clock shouldn't start but if it does where does it say you can put time back on the clock?

...And you reference for the clock not starting on a bad toss is...?

mick

tomegun · #33 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 09:19am

Mick what I meant by that is if the toss is immediately blown dead then this will happen before the clock starts. This is a matter if tenths of a second though. I just don't think you can go back and put time on the clock. So, the answer to your question is I don't have a reference. Normally, I wouldn't be concerned with the state of the clock in this situation unless the clock continues to run after the whistle.

cmathews · #34 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 09:56am

The toss is bad, this means the ball remains dead, a whistle only causes a dead ball in one situation (inadvertant whistle), in all other cases it confirms that the ball is dead. If the ball is to remain dead it can't be legally touched, if it can't be legally touched the clock can't properly start, if the clock can't properly start then it is a timing error that can and in my mind should be corrected. I also think that some justification for this is from the officials manual the DownTown pointed out. Most of the rules have a logical and justifiable explanation and usually fair play is central to that explanation. Should the kids lose 4 seconds because of a bad toss? I don't think so, so I think the right thing to do is put the time back up and go again, and I think it is justifiable with the statement from the officials manual.. my 2 cents for the 10th time, does that mean I am almost up to a quarters worth?? LOL :

Dan_ref · #35 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 10:06am

Quote:

Originally posted by cmathews
The toss is bad, this means the ball remains dead,...

Nope. The ball is made live when the toss is released. That's the case for a good, bad or indifferent toss.

cmathews · #36 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 10:14am

Dan, if that is really the intent of the rule then what is the justification for tossing again? I don't have my books so I can't quote, but the jist of the toss says it shall be tossed at right angles to the sidelines and division line or something close....since it wasn't it isn't a good toss, if it isn't good it shouldn't become live, just as if you hand the ball to the player at the throwin spot and it is mishandled, the count doesn't continue while you retrieve the ball, so it is pretty similar....either way, I will put time back on the clock and go...

Dan_ref · #37 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 10:21am

Quote:

Originally posted by cmathews
Dan, if that is really the intent of the rule then what is the justification for tossing again? I don't have my books so I can't quote, but the jist of the toss says it shall be tossed at right angles to the sidelines and division line or something close....since it wasn't it isn't a good toss, if it isn't good it shouldn't become live, just as if you hand the ball to the player at the throwin spot and it is mishandled, the count doesn't continue while you retrieve the ball, so it is pretty similar....either way, I will put time back on the clock and go...

The ball is made live unconditionally on the toss...look it up in rule 6. If the toss is too low, too high or at an angle we are given, by rule, an opportunity to correct it. There are not many ways to put time back onto the clock. This sitch is not one of them.

Rich · #38 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 11:17am

Look in the NFHS manual, somewhere around section 200-220. It does mention in the 2-official section that if a toss is blown down the officials are to make sure the clock hasn't started. Or something like that. I left my book in the car, but I remember reading something like this last night. Could someone look it up and see whether this applies?

First game tonight, varsity boys. 34 games until baseball season

Rich

cmathews · #39 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 11:23am

Rich,
Paragraph 212 according to DownTownTonyBrown

Rich · #40 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 11:31am

That's the section I was talking about. I wish I would've read the thread more carefully.

I would put the time back up. Any coach that would argue this at the beginning of the game is going to cause me bigger problems than this.

Rich

ChuckElias · #41 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 11:39am

Yeah, Rich, it's 212. It says, "If the toss is poor, either official shall sound the whistle immediately, signal the clock should not start and order a rejump." Paragraph 321 makes the same point in reference to a 3-whistle crew.

It states clearly that the clock should not start. Notice, however, that it doesn't say what to do if the clock does start.

Paragraph 215 says that if there's a violation before the jump ball is legally touched, then the clock should not start. But a bad toss is not a violation.

Rich · #42 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 12:13pm

But it also means that the toss really never happened.

If one of the umpires is blowing down the toss, does s/he really intend to start the clock?

Of course, this is all hypothetical since I never blow down a toss

Rich

tomegun · #43 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 12:26pm

Good point Rich. Here we are arguing over this all day and the answer is staring us in the face.

1. In a 2-person or 3-person the clock has to be started by an official. If the official blows the toss then he/she never chopped the clock. So, if the clock starts we have to go to one of the problems we don't talk about enough, THE TABLE! They need to quit spectating and become part of the team. Forget about what they think and when they think the clock should start. Look at when the ref chops the clock.

2. In this situation if the official tossing the ball had to stop the clock then I can see why there is an argument about putting time back on the clock. Also, the other official needs to get on the ball and get some guts.

Dan_ref · #44 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 12:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
But it also means that the toss really never happened.

If one of the umpires is blowing down the toss, does s/he really intend to start the clock?

Of course, this is all hypothetical since I never blow down a toss

Rich

Of course the toss happened. The ball was made live, the clock properly started presumably on the U1's chop (remember, the R blew it dead?) and 4 seconds later the ball was made dead on the whistle. It happens. Toss it back up & continue with 19:56.

BTW, although I never say never, I agree it's got to be one hell of a bad toss before I blow it back.

AK ref SE · #45 (**permalink**) Tue Nov 25, 2003, 01:32pm

Well I agree with what is said in the officials manual....The clock should have never started in the first place. If it did, I am going to the table bring both coaches together tell them we are going to start the game with 8:00 on the clock and the clock should never have been started. Its the right thing to do.

Contact is a foul, unless it is incidental contact.....from ready posts in here, I know we let a lot of incidental contact go instead of calling a foul, why, because most of the time it is the right thing to do and makes for a better flow to the game.

Just my opinion! and my 2 cents!

AK ref SE