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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 13, 2000, 01:06pm
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Alright, I know how you all love a good story and a refereeing puzzle all rolled into one. Here’s one to remember. Opening week for the all City church league and I get dragged into working because we got a ref too sick. (Normally I am strictly books and clock.) Somebody had the bright idea that it would be neat to pair up the two final teams from last season to kick off this season. The championship last year was mired in a bit of controversy, so needless to say this game was hard fought.

Team A is down by one following a couple of free throws and now has all of two seconds to throw the ball the length of the court and shoot for a win. Team B is being cautious not to draw any fouls, but elects to not guard the A player throwing the ball in. So we have 9 players huddled 60 feet away from the ball between the half court line and the key. Here is the sequence of events that seemed to last forever but took less that two seconds to occur (A5 is inbouding the ball, Team B with possession).

My partner gives A5 the ball and starts his 5 second count
A1 steps on B1’s foot and goes down. No foul, no advantage.
B1 falls over A1 and covers him, again no foul.
A5 throws a baseball style pass towards the huddle.
B2, who is busy looking at the pile up is struck with the ball right in the side of the head, goes down like a lead balloon.
The clock starts.
I am concerned that the struck player may be hurt, I blow the whistle to stop play.
The ball goes through the hoop.
The final buzzer sounds.
B2 comes to with a big headache.
All hell breaks loose.

Team A wants two points and the win and no time on the clock
or a foul on B1, two shots (bonus), and most of the time gone (with B1 fouling out with no subs)
or B2 removed for an injury timeout and all the time on the clock.

Team B wants a foul on A1 (bonus), and he would be fouled out
Or most of the time run off the clock with a jump ball
And insists that B2 stay in the game.

Please also note that my two partners were little comfort…the lead was too obstructed to see anything and the trail was counting the inbounds and saw only the player struck with the ball. In the end, I reset everything, gave no fouls, and simply played it over. This is a remedy available to us Church league folks, but I was wondering how the official stance would have been under say NCAA rules?

Enjoy.
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Old Mon Nov 13, 2000, 01:49pm
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How can A5 be inbounding with Team B having possession?
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Old Mon Nov 13, 2000, 01:56pm
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Do you think that the injured player would have been put at greater risk by withholding the whistle for 2 seconds?

Otherwise, since the whistle blew there's no basket and if no one has definite knowledge of the time on the clock, then it's game over.
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Old Mon Nov 13, 2000, 02:26pm
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IMHO ... since it is not a "try", the ball became dead when your whistle blew. There was no team possession at the time, so you would go to alternating possession with what ever time was on the clock when you blew the whistle. Inbound at the point nearest B2.

While it adds a lot to the story, I don't think the fact the the horn sounded or the ball went in the basket changes what should be done.

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Old Mon Nov 13, 2000, 03:01pm
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Cool

I'll vote.

Whistle killed ball with one Second.
Ball to A.

mick
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Old Mon Nov 13, 2000, 03:19pm
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well thats a fine mess you got me into. If you could have held the whistle the game would have ended like it should. The next ? is how did the ball get to the basket for a score. was it off the head or did team A shoot it? IF it bounced off the head and went in, its a two point goal. If a player shot it, was the release before or after the whistle. If the release was before the whistle-two points. if after the whistle then its ball OOB nearest where the player had possession. Put the amount of time you KNOW should be on the clock.
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Old Mon Nov 13, 2000, 05:34pm
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Smile NFHS

As I read the scenario, the ball bounced off the defender's head and went through the hoop, untouched by any other player. Given that, it is not a try nor tip (i.e., shot). So, the ball becomes dead at the whistle and the "basket" never happened.

Since there is no team posession, the next throw-in will be determined by the A/P, which I think you meant to say was team B, the defense. Put 1 second back on the clock and have team B inbound the ball near the pile-up.

Everyone will agree it is better to not have this situation, even in a church league. You could blow the whistle after the two players are on the floor before the throw-in. Tell the players to get up and be more careful. The rules don't really permit this, but in a church league you can easily do those kind of things.

The other avoidance was already mentioned -- you don't stop a game for an injury unless a) the player is in additional danger if the game proceeds, or b) nothing exciting is about to happen (e.g., ball is lazily in the back court), or c) the injury is so serious that seconds count (very unusual!). Given this scenario as I picture it, knowing the time on the clock, I hold my whistle.

The odd thing here is hold your whistle and team A wins. Blow the whistle and team B wins. Not the place a referee wants to find themself.
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2000, 12:16am
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Re: NFHS

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Ogg
As I read the scenario, the ball bounced off the defender's head and went through the hoop, untouched by any other player. Given that, it is not a try nor tip (i.e., shot). So, the ball becomes dead at the whistle and the "basket" never happened.

Since there is no team posession, the next throw-in will be determined by the A/P, which I think you meant to say was team B, the defense. Put 1 second back on the clock and have team B inbound the ball near the pile-up.

There is no next throw-in. The game is over. Under NF rules, you have to allow the clock operator one second to stop the clock. You can't put one second back on the clock. If he was unable to stop the clock before the horn sounded, the game is over.

5.10.1B Comment
Timing mistakes which may be corrected are limited to those which result from the timer's neglect to stop or start the clock as specified by the rules. The rules do not permit the referee to make allowance for normal reaction time of the timer which results in a "lag" in stopping the clock. By interpretation, "lag or reaction" time is limited to one second when the official's signal is heard and/or seen clearly. One second or the "reaction" time is interpreted to have elapsed from the time the signal was made until the official glanced at the clock.

Quote:

The odd thing here is hold your whistle and team A wins. Blow the whistle and team B wins. Not the place a referee wants to find themself.
Team A would win if the ball entered the basket before the horn. But if the horn sounded while the ball was in flight, it would be dead since it was not a try or a tap and Team B would win.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 13th, 2000 at 11:30 PM]
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Old Tue Nov 14, 2000, 11:54am
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So the answer is:

NCAA:

No basket because the ball went in after the whistle &
we have no shot,

Put 1 second on clock because there's no lag rule

Ball goes to team with the arrow because whistle caused a
dead ball with no team possesion (on throw in)

NF:

No basket

Game over because of 1 second lag rule.

In either case HOLD YOUR WHISTLE until the buzzer sounds!

Do we agree?




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