Passing to Oneself- violation- Where in Rules!!!

[pistol]

Hi everyone,
Had a question the other night about whether you could pass to yourself. I said no . Couldn't find it spelled in the NCAA Men's rules though not matter how hard I looked.

Can anyone help me as to where it is explained in the rules. I realize that the definition of a Pass spells out to "another" player but there must be something else. I have seen players pass to themselves off another player but always blew it down when it went from the player to the same player with only air in between . Also have not blown it down when a player threw the ball a distance before he had dribbled and then recovered the ball after it had bounced and carried on legally.
Please consider before dribble and after dribble.
Thanks in Advance

[oc]

?????

Not completely understanding the question. You won't find a section on passing in the rule book. Reading the sections on dribbling and travelling might answer your question.

[Hawks Coach]

First, you must determine that it is a pass not a shot. If it is a shot attempt, regardless of whether or not it hits rim, it is still a shot attempt and there is no violation even if the same player catches it.

If it is clearly a pass, then you have one of three scenarios.

1)A1 has not used dribble, tosses ball in air, runs to where ball has hit the floor, and starts a dribble with one hand off the bounce - Legal - the toss becomes the start of the dribble.

2)A1 has used dribble, picked ball up, and then did the same thing as in 1. Violation - double dribble, as A1's toss started a dribble again and he had used his dribble.

3)A1 has or has not used his dribble, tosses ball in air, takes two or more steps to retrieve, catches ball. Travel. A1 has moved both feet without dribbling or shooting the ball. I could also make a travel out of taking 1 1/2 steps and catching then dribbling, but that's another unlikely scenario that I don't want to explore right now

[cmathews]

Hawkscoach, nice eplaination there..I do however have to disagree with you on #3. If the player has not used their dribble there is no limit on the number of steps it takes to get to the "passed" ball....I disagree with you only because there is nothing in the rule book that says this...and after looking at BBR's traveling quiz... I do however think it should be illegal, there just happens to be no rules support here....

[Hawks Coach]

cmatthews
If #3 is not a travel, why does it matter if the individual has used their dribble or not? Since the ball never hits the floor, we are not talking about a dribble here, so you can't give a double dribble violation. So this is either legal with or without having used the dribble, or it is not legal with or without having used the dribble.

I would argue that you have a travel all the time if a player picks up their dribble and then passes to themselves because they have no other option. If that is the case, you have a travel if they haven't used their dribble as well.

As for the travelling quiz, note that the ball hits the floor in BBR's example. That makes the pass a dribble, which can be either continued as in my #1, or picked up (a variation that I did not include but is BBR's quiz question). In my #3, the ball is caught in the air, making it no dribble and therefore a travel.

[cmathews]

Hawkscoach, yep my bad, I was assuming that the ball hit the floor. If the ball does not hit the floor you are exactly correct that you would have a traveling call.

[Hawks Coach]

In your defense, it wasn't the most clearly worded situation I didn't state either way.

Of course, when you assume . . .

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by cmathews
Hawkscoach, yep my bad,

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
In your defense, it wasn't the most clearly worded situation I didn't state either way.

Sing with me. . . "Caaaaaaaan you feel. . . the love tonight?"


Sorry. Just picked up "Lion King" on DVD for Molly.

[pistol]

Ok Guys, now answer this variation .

A1, who has used his dribble, pivots and attempts a pass to A2. A2 , however, turns to set a screen just as A1 releases theball. The pass misses everyone and bounces off the floor. A1 chases after the lose ball, recovers it without anyone else touching it, then without pivoting, passes the ball to A2 who rolls to the hoop and scores the winning basket. Great , legal play eh!!!If he had pivoted and passed - violation -right???

Only in Canada you say???

[pistol]

What about this???

A1 , who has used his dribble , pivots and passes to A2. A2 however was just setting a screen and does not see the pass and it bounces on the floor. Speedy A1 rushes over , recovers the errant pass before touched by anyone else and without pivoting, hits A2 who has rolled to the hoop to score the winning hoop in their rival's gym. The official rules legal play and runs for the door. Was he/she correct.

If A1 pivots and passes after retreiving the ball - it's a violation- correct?

[pistol]

Sorry about the duplication. I didn't think the first one got through.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by pistol
What about this???

A1 , who has used his dribble , pivots and passes to A2. A2 however was just setting a screen and does not see the pass and it bounces on the floor. Speedy A1 rushes over , recovers the errant pass before touched by anyone else and without pivoting, hits A2 who has rolled to the hoop to score the winning hoop in their rival's gym. The official rules legal play and runs for the door. Was he/she correct.

If A1 pivots and passes after retreiving the ball - it's a violation- correct?

Assuming that A1 had used his dribble and made what was clearly a pass, once it hit the floor and A1 retrieved it, you have a double dribble, as long as no other player so much as brushed the ball. The violation occurs as soon as A1 touches the ball again, not when he pivots and passes for the second time.

Now a more important fact is that if you were involved in this game and this is your only gripe about the officiating, let it go. Everybody boots one now and again. I saw an NCAA game where a straight up double dribble (clear dribble, stop, pivot a bit looking for a pass, clear dribble) went un-noticed. It happens.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by pistol
A1, who has used his dribble, pivots and attempts a pass to A2. A2 , however, turns to set a screen just as A1 releases theball. The pass misses everyone and bounces off the floor. A1 chases after the lose ball, recovers it without anyone else touching it, then without pivoting, passes the ball to A2 who rolls to the hoop and scores the winning basket. Great , legal play eh!!!

Not in FED or NCAA rules. This would be an illegal dribble. Once A1 ends his dribble, and pushes the ball to the floor again, he may not be the first to touch it. If he is the first to touch it, the "pass" is considered a second dribble, and A1 has violated.

If he had pivoted and passed - violation -right???

The pivot is irrelevant to the play. Violation in either case. Sorry.

[pistol]

If A1 has not used his dribble in the same situation is itlegal then??/

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by pistol
If A1 has not used his dribble in the same situation is itlegal then??/

Yes - the pass becomes the start of his dribble. He could either continue his dribble after it hit the floor, or catch, pivot, pass, etc - everything a dribler can do upon ending the dribble.