Held Ball Player Control

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Read my posts.

I would never do this is a real game.

Why not?

Because since the removal of the change of status rule forty years ago tens of thousands of officials have continued to call it as is we still had the change of status rule, despite the fact that imperfect rule language says otherwise.

Purpose and intent, even forty year old purpose and intent, and possibly "tradition", trumps imperfect rule language.

Or, maybe because it's not the rule.

Team Control continues until .... An opponent secures control.

If B placing the hands on the ball means B has control, the A no longer has control. And, if B placing the hands on the ball means B has control, you can't have a held ball, because there was no "indue roughness."

So, B cannot have control by this action (alone).

If A requests TO before you judge that "undue roughness" will occur, grant the TO. Or, if you judge the "undue roughness" before the TO request then call the held ball. The second is the better choice in most circumstances (that is, unless A quickly removes the ball from B's grasp, or the TO request is VERY VERY early in the sequenc.)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Team Control continues until .... An opponent secures control.

Great citation.

Almost exactly what I've been looking for for the past ten days.

I can live with this citation, but it has one minor problem.

Granting timeouts requires player control, not team control.

I can't come up with an exact citation for exactly when player control ends, but it seems to end when one is no longer holding, or no longer dribbling (i.e., interrupted dribble) the ball.

While I didn't like the 80% of a count part of the old change of status rule, the held ball (jump ball) part the rule regarding timeout requests was very useful; "Sorry coach. Too late. Change of status".

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If A requests TO before you judge that "undue roughness" will occur, grant the TO. Or, if you judge the "undue roughness" before the TO request then call the held ball. The second is the better choice in most circumstances (that is, unless A quickly removes the ball from B's grasp, or the TO request is VERY VERY early in the sequence.)

Great practical advice.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Granting timeouts requires player control, not team control.

Are you sure this blanket statement is correct?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Granting timeouts requires player control, not team control.

Originally Posted by bucky

Are you sure this blanket statement is correct?

4-12-1: Control, Player: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

5-8-3-A: Time-Out, Stopping Play: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when: The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.

There is team control but no player control during an interrupted dribble, or when a ball is being passed among teammates.

Officials would not grant a request for a timeout during these two situations.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4-12-1: Control, Player: A player is in control of the ball when he/she is holding or dribbling a live ball.

5-8-3-A: Time-Out, Stopping Play: Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, must be stopped when an official: Grants and signals a player’s/head coach’s oral or visual request for a time-out, such request being granted only when: The ball is at the disposal or in control of a player of his/her team.

There is team control but no player control during an interrupted dribble, or when a ball is being passed among teammates.

Officials would not grant a request for a timeout during these two situations.

After a made basket, there might not be player control but it is at the disposal of the team and therefore, a TO may be granted. Or, how about resumption of play procedures where there is team control but no player control.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

After a made basket, there might not be player control but it is at the disposal of the team and therefore, a TO may be granted.

I was only trying to distinguish between team control and player control for the purpose of requesting and being granted a timeout during a held ball "wrestling" situation.

But you are 100% correct, disposal certainly means granting a request for a timeout, but was not part of my two situatons (interrupted dribble, ball is being passed among teammates), and certainly is not any part of a held ball "wrestling" situation.

But definitely a nice clarificaton. Thanks.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I was only trying to distinguish between team control and player control for the purpose of requesting and being granted a timeout during a held ball "wrestling" situation.

But you are 100% correct, disposal certainly means granting a request for a timeout, but was not part of my two situatons (interrupted dribble, ball is being passed among teammates), and certainly is not any part of a held ball "wrestling" situation.

But definitely a nice clarificaton. Thanks.

LOL!!!

You're the one who likes to nit-pick everybody's posts to make sure every word fits every rule being discussed, so you should hold yourself to a certain standard yourself.



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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

You're the one who likes to nit-pick everybody's posts to make sure every word fits every rule being discussed, so you should hold yourself to a certain standard yourself.

I certainly should. I try, but it doesn't always happen.