Dribble? Nothing?

[bucky]

Saw this in a pickup game and it started an argument.

A1 leaps into the air and clearly secures a rebound. While descending and still in the air, A1 clearly bats/releases the ball to the floor. After the ball bounces and A1 lands, player A1 clearly secures control of the ball. Player A1 then begins dribbling.

This has been covered but as I type, my brain's memory is frozen. Vaguely recall a case play. Players can't start a dribble without a pivot foot so is there violation here or play on? If play on, what would you call A1's actions...a pass, fumble, dribble, other, or nothing?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bucky

Saw this in a pickup game and it started an argument.

A1 leaps into the air and clearly secures a rebound. While descending and still in the air, A1 clearly bats/releases the ball to the floor. After the ball bounces and A1 lands, player A1 clearly secures control of the ball. Player A1 then begins dribbling.

This has been covered but as I type, my brain's memory is frozen. Vaguely recall a case play. Players can't start a dribble without a pivot foot so is there violation here or play on? If play on, what would you call A1's actions...a pass, fumble, dribble, other, or nothing?

The first dribble (started while the player was in the air) was legal. It ended when A1 grabbed the ball after landing. The second dribble was illegal.

And, that statement is incorrect.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The first dribble (started while the player was in the air) was legal. It ended when A1 grabbed the ball after landing. The second dribble was illegal.

And, that statement is incorrect.

👍

I would love to know who started the myth that a Player cannot start a Dribble before establishing a Pivot Foot?

MTD, Sr.

[bucky]

Does the case play, although old, not indicate (via the boldfaced words) that a dribble is UNABLE to be started without a pivot foot?

4.44.3 SITUATION B: A1 receives the ball with both feet off the floor and he/she lands simultaneously on both feet without establishing a pivot foot. A1 then jumps off both feet in an attempt to try for goal, but realizing the shot may be blocked, A1 drops the ball to the floor and dribbles. RULING: A1 has traveled as one foot must be considered to be the pivot and must be on the floor when the ball is released to start a dribble. The fact that no pivot foot had been established does not alter this ruling.

Also, does not the current case play suggest the same?

4.44.3 SITUATION A: A1 jumps to try for goal. B1 also jumps and: (a) slaps the ball out of A1’s hands; (b) touches the ball but does not prevent A1 from releasing the ball; (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball; or (d) touches the ball and A1 drops it to the floor and touches it first after it bounces . RULING: In (a) and (b), the ball remains live. In (c), a traveling violation. In (d), a violation for starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. Since the touching did not prevent the pass or try in (b), (c) and (d), the ball remains live and subsequent action is covered by rules which apply to the situation.

[Nevadaref]

Bob and MTD are correct.

Those case plays simply demonstrate that even though a pivot foot has yet to be established a player in control of the ball may not jump into the air and then start a dribble. That action circumvents the traveling rule 4-44-3c (lifting the pivot foot prior to releasing the ball to start a dribble) and therefore has been deemed a violation by the NFHS.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

👍

I would love to know who started the myth that a Player cannot start a Dribble before establishing a Pivot Foot?

MTD, Sr.

I had exactly that scenario happen in a JUCO game yesterday. The player was dribbling, then picked up the ball. He jumped into the air and threw the ball to the floor. I called an illegal dribble, because he started a second dribble after stopping the first.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I had exactly that scenario happen in a JUCO game yesterday. The player was dribbling, then picked up the ball. He jumped into the air and threw the ball to the floor. I called an illegal dribble, because he started a second dribble after stopping the first.

Did he touch the ball again after "throwing (it) to the floor?"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I had exactly that scenario happen in a JUCO game yesterday. The player was dribbling, then picked up the ball. He jumped into the air and threw the ball to the floor. I called an illegal dribble, because he started a second dribble after stopping the first.

You should have called traveling.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The player was dribbling, then picked up the ball. He jumped into the air and threw the ball to the floor.

NFHS: How did you determine that this act wasn't the beginning of a really bad and really ugly bounce pass?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Did he touch the ball again after "throwing (it) to the floor?"

Didn't the NFHS clarify this recently?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

The player was dribbling, then picked up the ball. He jumped into the air and threw the ball to the floor.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Did he touch the ball again after "throwing (it) to the floor?"

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS: How did you determine that this act wasn't the beginning of a really bad and really ugly bounce pass? Didn't the NFHS clarify this recently?

4.15 Comment Dribble –Legal And Illegal Movement
4.15 COMMENT: It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble. A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from a player's hand, when a player fumbles, or when a player bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions. It is a dribble when a player is in control of the ball, bats, throws, or pushes the ball to the floor, and is the first to touch the ball after it returns from the floor. It is not dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.

Rationale: The current rules do not provide a clear, singular definition of what constitutes a dribble, leading to inconsistent enforcement of traveling violations. By rule, a traveling violation at the start of a dribble does not occur until a dribble is completed by touching the ball after it returns from the floor. Officials have sometimes incorrectly ruled a traveling violation as soon as the ball is released to begin a dribble while the pivot foot is off the floor. Including this clarification in the casebook will improve officials’ understanding and promote consistent application of the traveling rule

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Bob and MTD are correct.

Those case plays simply demonstrate that even though a pivot foot has yet to be established a player in control of the ball may not jump into the air and then start a dribble. That action circumvents the traveling rule 4-44-3c (lifting the pivot foot prior to releasing the ball to start a dribble) and therefore has been deemed a violation by the NFHS.

I totally agree however.....

What is the action in the original post called? It is not a pass. It is not a dribble. It is not a fumble. What is it? Are we suggesting that the rule/case books, although highly detailed and specific, and we as humans, do not have a name/word for the action described?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bucky

I totally agree however.....

What is the action in the original post called? It is not a pass. It is not a dribble. It is not a fumble. What is it? Are we suggesting that the rule/case books, although highly detailed and specific, and we as humans, do not have a name/word for the action described?

It *is* a dribble. Followed by a second dribble.