Two Points Or Three Points ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...based on an article in the September IAABO Sportorials magazine, that some new NFHS case plays may be published that may possibly help settle our debates.

NFHS 5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three- point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

Originally Posted by BillyMac

These NFHS interpretations for the 2024 season are designed to provide clarity for officials determining whether a thrown ball from behind the arc should count for two or three points. Of course, only 15,000 officials are IAABO members, so I'm looking forward to new NFHS interpretations for the 2024-25 season.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Case book play 4.41.4 SITUATION B ... Well, this case play did not go away to my understanding.

Just got my 2024-25 NFHS Rulebook, Casebook, and Simplified and Illustrated in the mail yesterday.

At first look I can't find any new case plays to clarify these "odd" tries, passes, and tipped balls from behind the three point line.

The problem is that the case play 4.41.4 Situation B (that's been around for many years) that both JRutledge and I refer to doesn't fully match the language in Rule 5-2-1.

We all know that some case plays do not fully match the rule wording, one reason why they may be deemed worthy of being published in the casebook.

Many of us, including me, have expressed an opinion that a case play (interpretation) for a specific "odd" situation "trumps" rule language.

I'm disappointed that there are no new NFHS interpretations to clarify such "odd" tries, passes, and tipped balls from behind the three point line situations (as seemingly promised by IAABO).

But I have to agree with JRutledge that 4.41.4 Situation B carries the "most weight" in such situations, especially since (for me) 4.41.4 Situation B has now been fully "endorsed" by IAABO.

[BillyMac]

For those that are wondering, here are some situations that I'm talking about.

From 1987-1988 (when the three point arc was introduced) to the clarification in 2001-02, the two following examples would have been ruled two points if the officials had not been 100% sure that it was an actual try.

1) A1, from behind the three point line, attempts a lob pass to A2 for an alley oop dunk. The pass is slightly off and the ball directly enters the basket untouched by A2.

2) A1, from behind the three point line, attempts a pass to A3, also behind the three point line. A3 is unprepared to catch the pass and the ball hits A3 in the head and deflects directly into the basket, untouched by any other player.

Here's the relevant rule, clarified in 2001-02:

NFHS 5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2) A1, from behind the three point line, attempts a pass to A3, also behind the three point line. A3 is unprepared to catch the pass and the ball hits A3 in the head and deflects directly into the basket, untouched by any other player.

Here are two conflicting casebook plays for my Situation 2:

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three- point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

4.41.4 - Situation B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket. Ruling: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

And here's the rule again:

NFHS 5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

5.2.1 SITUATION C talks about the ball being "touched", but doesn't mention what part of the body.

5.2.1 SITUATION C also talks about where on the court the ball is touched (inside or outside three point line).

4.41.4 Situation B talks about part of the body that the ball touches, but doesn't talk about where on the court the ball is touched (inside or outside three point line).

Both case play interpretations could be improved by addding some additional details.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Just got my 2024-25 NFHS Rulebook, Casebook, and Simplified and Illustrated in the mail yesterday.

At first look I can't find any new case plays to clarify these "odd" tries, passes, and tipped balls from behind the three point line.

The problem is that the case play 4.41.4 Situation B (that's been around for many years) that both JRutledge and I refer to doesn't fully match the language in Rule 5-2-1.

We all know that some case plays do not fully match the rule wording, one reason why they may be deemed worthy of being published in the casebook.

Many of us, including me, have expressed an opinion that a case play (interpretation) for a specific "odd" situation "trumps" rule language.

I'm disappointed that there are no new NFHS interpretations to clarify such "odd" tries, passes, and tipped balls from behind the three point line situations (as seemingly promised by IAABO).

But I have to agree with JRutledge that 4.41.4 Situation B carries the "most weight" in such situations, especially since (for me) 4.41.4 Situation B has now been fully "endorsed" by IAABO.

What was the intent of the original rule that was changed in 2000-2001?

To eliminate confusion on plays thrown at the basket. If the ball is not going near the basket, then the debate over the other stuff is irrelevant.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What was the intent of the original rule that was changed in 2000-2001?

Good point. Purpose and intent.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good point. Purpose and intent.

I went back to the horse's mouth:

NFHS 5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points.

A deflection is not a pass, nor is it a try, nor is it thrown.

It could count as two points, but never three points.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I went back to the horse's mouth:

Three points shall be awarded for any ball thrown, passed, or shot from beyond the three point arc that passes through a team’s own basket. Where in most situations a try can be differentiated from a pass, to eliminate possible confusion this change should help to clarify by not requiring judgment as to whether the ball in flight was a pass or a try.

A deflection is not a pass, nor is it a try, nor is it thrown.

It could count as two points, but never three points.

Is this a reference to the original rules change?

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Do any of you know of any actual case where an official ruled under the old standard, "I don't think you meant that one to go into the basket, so 2 points"?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Do any of you know of any actual case where an official ruled under the old standard, "I don't think you meant that one to go into the basket, so 2 points"?

From 1987-1988 (three point arc introduced) to the clarification in 2001-02 (didn't have to be an actual try (alley oop)) there were such real actual situations nationally.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Is this a reference to the original rules change?

Good catch. Sorry. I selected the wrong quote. I should have quoted the actual rule:

NFHS 5-2-1: A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team’s own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points.

I fixed it.